well done champ,
PM sent.
Greg

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1970 Cooper S ex-Bathurst & ATCC
1964 Austin Cooper S ex-Group C race car
1967 Morris Cooper S ex-Group B
1962 Mini Speed sports sedan
1968-71 ex-Peter Manton Shell car

Chux

What cam is in your road engine...?

From his build thread "RE 286i cam" I think.

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1963 Morris 850 Smoke Grey
1963 Morris 850 Shadow Blue
1965 Morris Mini Smooth Van
1966 Morris Mini Van
1969 Morris Mini Deluxe Resto
5/72 Clubman Gt

Geez, comparing any dyno figures on the same dyno but on different days can be iffy, humidity, temp etc. I'd like to see one after another on the same day to really be a test.

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The bitterness of poor quality (or Crappy Workmanship) remains LONG AFTER the Sweet Taste of Low Price is forgotten.

Yep it's a 286i AB. Will be interesting to see the difference in numbers from a Mainline dyno to a Dyno Dynamics. I've done about 2000kms in it since it was on the dyno last, still feels like it pulls like a train though. Might have to put new plugs and points in it for the occasion! Hehehe

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1968 Mini-matic - 1340cc, 45 weber - 92hpatw, 14.5 @91mph, GrandmaSpec

This will be very interesting, and thanks for volunteering your car for the run. I know a lot of cars that run on Tilleys dyno, so it will be nice to see what dynos read high and what read low. Yes there are factors that need to be considered Ty, but a skilled operator should be able to minimise that, and Brad is well regarded in the industry. Will at least give us an idea.

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1970 Cooper S ex-Bathurst & ATCC
1964 Austin Cooper S ex-Group C race car
1967 Morris Cooper S ex-Group B
1962 Mini Speed sports sedan
1968-71 ex-Peter Manton Shell car

It will be interesting.... I dynoed the engine not Graham I also did the head which is a full race head, as good as many of the group n cars in aus the cam is a very large cam and would not be classed as a road cam more a super sprint / rally cam. Greig ( mini classic ) built the engine. When it was first built it made 93 hp on Mrc's mainline dyno and as stated 132hp on the engine dyno by memory the car also ran 15.1 at 91 and Dan was still getting use to driving it I'm sure it would have run 14.9 on a good run. To compare Greigs group n car run 13.9 at 97 and made a genuine 150 hp and at the time was the fastest group n car of the time and remember that one is a road car that weighs a lot more than the race car. It is hard to compare dynos, engine dyno to rolling roads as there can be a lot of variables and both are very important to engine development. To answer the question about 150hp from a 5 port is a very good engine and there would not be many of those out there.

This is a dyno sheet from a group n car that made 147hp on the engine dyno

What engine dyno , how was it calibrated and what correction factor did you use to get 147hp?
The importance of these things was established awhile ago. I can measure the length of a building with a 50m steel tape measure or a 50m fibreglass tape and in the sun get vastly different measurements.
So don't forget a dyno is a complex measuring device only. ( insert previous essay)

If the original question of the thread was what is the most powerful n/a A series then someone set some guidelines? Ie whether its hp/per litre or a series head & block. Sounds like a group n based engine would be a good start as so much effort goes into development?
What about these dyno days? Did they sort out any men or boys? Back to back on a dyno would be the only way to sort it out. A road dyno would get more done in one go?
Using one set of tyres atvsame pressure would remove tyre rolling resistance differences etc.

Who is putting their hand up as having the biggest grunter?
I know I am out as I have seen AB , GR and others pull away from me even after getting a way better run out of a corner onto the straight.
Would be interesting to se the answer to the original thread question and if possible compare to others overseas? Comparing hp/litre, VE s and BMEP s would also tell a lot.

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The formula for the length of a piece of string is simple: Twice as long as from one end to the centre!

Hi Ben
Unlike your tape measure scenario the correction factor used in dyno rooms is a standard calculation taking into consideration temp,humidity and air pressure to give a repeatable result every time. The correction factor used on the day is irrelevant, it would have been the correct figures needed on the day to get the correct result eg temp, humidity and air pressure of the room when the engine was tested.

The dyno results that I posted are by no means the best, but examples, so people can see the difference that we have found to be fairly consistent on many occasions between our engine dyno and a new Mainline dyno (rollers)

As for who's dyno were talking about, its the Russell Eng dyno and i'm Matt Russell for those that don't know who i am. ps it's the same dyno that you use, or have used in the past.

As for who has the most HP or what the figure is, the answer will probably never be answered to everybody's satisfaction. I have seen a lot of R&D on mini engines and i stand by my statement that 150 hp made out of a 5 port of any size is a very good engine. There may be some with a couple more but it would not be much and even the true figures were shared there will always be someone that can't produce the same that would question the results. So I agree the only true way is to have them all on the same dyno on the same day

Well said there Matt.

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1963 Morris 850 Smoke Grey
1963 Morris 850 Shadow Blue
1965 Morris Mini Smooth Van
1966 Morris Mini Van
1969 Morris Mini Deluxe Resto
5/72 Clubman Gt

Hey Matty.
Sorry mate didn't know it was you. You've got the 10 strongest chookie motors covered now this?
I agree well said! I have wet dreams about a genuine 150 hp!

Don't want it to be a pissing contest but the Correction Factor matters as it may vary the number. It only matters if your trying to compare that number to other figures.
As I think GR has always used one of the SAE CFs it could vary by 4% possibly making your 147hp maybe 141hp or conversely nearly 153hp!!
Can you post your raw figures of weather, tq and rpm?

There are too many different CFs and their history to go through but Land and Sea have an easy read page outlining some of it.
http://www.land-and-sea.com/dyno-tech-t ... epower.htm

If you do believe me that; which CF is used and the ultimate number it produces does matter then here is a calculator that will allow you to convert the raw figures to any of the 13 Correction Factors listed.
http://www.bigdynodatabase.com/DynoCF.php

CFs were discussed awhile ago here. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=81461&start=15

I have had great success finding some HP gains on your dyno Matty and as GR always seems to calibrate it the same way each time I trust that I can compare that figure with previous figures on that dyno.
I don't know if that helps to compare other peoples dyno figures as they may be calibrated theirs differently or using a different CF.
I actually think that dyno calibration is as important or more than the CF being applied.

I only used the measuring tape analogy as both tapes are supposed to be accurate but one is affected more by weather and pressure/stretch etc.
Its like saying "the concrete slab is 47850mm" long without telling you which tape I used and if it had sun on it or how hard I pulled on it. The steel tape measured the same slab at 48m exactly.
Which dimension would you trust to build the house to? I would order the concrete based on the steel tape and pay the concretor based on the FG tape pulled as hard as I could on a hot day

Although a tape measure isn't able to be recalibrated (except for putting in the bin) it shows that as a measuring device (as is a dyno) it is subject to varaibles.
I reckon I could work out a Correction Factor for a 50 metre Bunnings/china special fibreglass tape that accounts for the length of tape rolled out, the amount of sunlight/temp on it and also the amount of stretch I pull on it. I could CF it back to an ISO standard.
Thankfully with the dyno measuring device many institutions have applied their own CF calculations to them already with the proviso the raw data is accurate.



Again I agree back to back is the only real way to find the biggest grunter.
As you say we may never find out satisfactorily what motor is strongest?
ps I am still sweating on that head that will turn that dyno inside out!

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The formula for the length of a piece of string is simple: Twice as long as from one end to the centre!

Hi Ben
Ever since i'v had my dyno I have always the SAE correction factor as do the v8 super car teams,what we must do is check the calibration of the dyno which I do, I get people complaining that the dyno out because there motor should be making more HP than that, that's why the weights are in the dyno room ready for those people to check it out.
When I first started to build motors seriously and bought the dyno I was only making 110 to 115 hp using the 285CO cam ground by Ivan Tighe and this HP was on par with all the top motors around at the time I have all the old dyno sheets from Town and Country Garage , Brian Foley/ Phill Barns / Terry Sheil and the list goes on.
When David Visard came out here in the early nineties he bought out some of his cams for me to try and the HP went up to around to 125 HP.
That's when I bought my own cam grinder and started to do my own thing on a long learning curve about cams,but one thing that has remained the same is the DYNO the GAUGE and the CF.
One thing I do not like to do is do the final tune on a motor when the BP pressure is down around 29.2 which is when there are storms around as you wind up with big CF's and the jetting and timing are way out for normal days, which are normally around 29.7's I would rather wait for a normal day where the CF is around 1.01 to 1.02 mark and the jetting is more realistic.
Phill Irving has a CF in his book Tuning For Speed which is within 1 to 2 HP of the Supa Flow / GO Power Dyno etc .
We are now making more HP out of road engines with road cams than they were in the 60 /70 and the HP is going up all the time thanks to R and D and not to correction factors.
Graham Russell

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"It's better to be not informed than ill-informed"

Hi Benny,

We have given an example of by no means the best but a good 5 port engine on our dyno compared to a quality set of rollers that we use on a regular basis. This was done because earlier in the conversation 142hp was said to equal 115atw, that is a drop of around 19% and in my experience that is not what I have found.

I will say that the correction factor used at Russell Eng has always been the same in all the R&D undertaken, and that has resulted in massive gains in performance for the a series engine in our country, Which you,AB,GM and many other racers have taken advantage over the years.

I don't think placing any more figures on here is going to prove who has the most hp.

There is the opportunity to run Dan's car on Brad's dyno so people of this fourm can compare just how good one of our products really are, which is a lot more than anyone else has offered in the past, no one has ever taken Graham up on running an engine on our dyno to compare.

We stand by our products and are proud of our achievements and in my opinion lead the way in R&D that filters down and is shared with road goers and racers in our country.

I don't think the question will every really be answered.

hmmm maybe i should of just said quickest quarter mile street legal engine lol... or even quickest 0-80/100km/h..
My question wasnt in relation to motor sports etc i was just curious as to what would be required/done for a brick that rips up local roads.