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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:21 pm 
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I don't really care that my car goes well or not with a webber/dellorto, I am just addicted to the sound. Now more so with ported intake manifold *drool* Sound is important, ask any Harley rider :P

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:57 pm 
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cool...
My last mini had twin SU's and went great. Just wondering about other things out on the market and so forth is all... I found The SU'd difficult to tune (probably as I am a hack) and get them both the same.

Why is the sidedraft so much better than the down draft. I would have thought you could get better flow from a downdraft and it would have better access to cooler air. I think having stuff poking out of the hood looks cool also...

Cheers

DaViD


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:13 pm 
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floss wrote:
cool...
My last mini had twin SU's and went great. Just wondering about other things out on the market and so forth is all... I found The SU'd difficult to tune (probably as I am a hack) and get them both the same.

Why is the sidedraft so much better than the down draft. I would have thought you could get better flow from a downdraft and it would have better access to cooler air. I think having stuff poking out of the hood looks cool also...

Cheers

DaViD

Sidedraft Weber/Dellorto gives a straighter shot onto the ports, but a 48IDA downdraft Weber (The one Vizard used) has to have 2x 90* bends in the manifold.
Practical for a hillclimb car, impractical for street use, IMO. :wink:
Also there are lots more s/h sidedrafts on the market to pick from.

Split Webers give an even straighter port run, but not many racers use them now- they are getting the same power with a single sidedraft.

Manifold design has moved on a bit since Vizard put pen to paper... :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:02 am 
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feralsprint wrote:
Horses for courses, nothing wrong with any of the carbs mentioned if properly set up, a well tuned Weber/Dellorto is just as fuel efficent as a SU


In theory yes, but even GR admits that he has yet to make a sidedraught as eficient as SUs. Inevitably your road going sidedraughts are fuel hungry


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:42 am 
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Mike wrote:
feralsprint wrote:
Horses for courses, nothing wrong with any of the carbs mentioned if properly set up, a well tuned Weber/Dellorto is just as fuel efficent as a SU


In theory yes, but even GR admits that he has yet to make a sidedraught as eficient as SUs. Inevitably your road going sidedraughts are fuel hungry

Yeah but my Dello 45 now goes better than his HS6... :P
And makes better music!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:26 am 
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It's all about the music 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:26 am 
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Mike

I take it your a fan of the SU's and that is all good but please dont make statements like "Inevitably your road going sidedraughts are fuel hungry" because a well set up sidedraught is only marginally less fuel efficient than a SU and probably better than most SU's because most of them are worn and not in good condition, and another reason is people with sidedraughts usually enjoy and use the extra perfomance they have and enjoy the music :D

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:32 am 
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Lillee is running 45 Dellorto and correct mixture. I have no problems with fuel economy, runs much much cheaper than my dunnydoor. Some guy in the fuel economy thread is running 18L/100kms and is running SUs so that throws that idea out the window...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:51 am 
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feralsprint wrote:
Mike

I take it your a fan of the SU's and that is all good but please dont make statements like "Inevitably your road going sidedraughts are fuel hungry" because a well set up sidedraught is only marginally less fuel efficient than a SU and probably better than most SU's because most of them are worn and not in good condition, and another reason is people with sidedraughts usually enjoy and use the extra perfomance they have and enjoy the music :D


Nope not an SU fan I run a Dellorto 45 as well. I just thought that since you made a statement like " a well tuned Weber/Dellorto is just as fuel efficent as a SU" I could quote the opinion of a well known Sydney engine specialist. And even you've just admited that a sidedraught is atleast marginaly less fuel efficient than SUs. All I was really trying to say is that even though a perfectly tuned sidedraught setup is supposed to be perfectly fuel efficient - everyone who uses these carbs doesnt use them for their fuel economy but for their performance potential. And in real life conditions it seems most sidedraughts are less that perfectly tuned for fuel efficiency (so much so that even for example Graham Russel - an engine specialist with sophisticated tunning tools and extensive experience admits that he does not get the same fuel efficiency out of them as out of SUs). I think even Des Hammil describes sidedraught setups somewhere as almoust always fuel hungry.

I had no intention of contradicting you here, I have immense respect for any man who owns both an Esprit and a Europa.


Last edited by Mike on Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:11 am 
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Mike

most supposed experts with expensive tuning gear cant even tune an SU let alone a weber/dellorto in this country :lol: if it isn't a stromberg or holley or fits on a holdford they don't even want to know, statement like you made are put forward by our american friends and have been continued here because we follow them instead of the europeans who by the way have lead the world in inivation for car design since cars began.glad to see you have crossed to the dark side and run a sidedraught :D

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:11 pm 
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I would just like to point out that an SU is a sidedraught. :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:19 pm 
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:D some people are just to anal for there own good :D

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:02 pm 
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Quote:
I would just like to point out that an SU is a sidedraught

Spot on Morris 1100, I'm glad somebody took the time to point out the bleedin' obvious. :wink:

Quote:
some people are just to anal for there own good

and I believe Feralsprint meant to type: "... too anal for their own good." :roll:

I'll go back to cleaning, sorting and labelling my spring washer collection now. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:00 pm 
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No I would of typed too anal for thier own good :D

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:34 am 
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Hello guys... thought i'd add my two-penny-worth (sorry, two-cents-worth!)...

Which carb is best for power? The one that has more than enough airflow for the job in hand and is clibrated to give the absolute best fuel mixture under all conditions.

The myth that Weber/Dellortos give more power than SUs is generall y caused by the ability (or lack, there of) to tune the Su properly. Not that many folk know how because they do not understand the instrument. Plus, the plethora of needles available makes it a somewhat expensive instrument to cater for, unlike Webers that every Tom Dick and Cobber can cope with because so many otehr vehicles use them and have done for eons. Dellortos fall somewhere in between. BUT fot the individual it is WAY cheaper to sort an Su than a Weber/Dellorto because all you have to pay for is one needle, maybe a piston spring. ?20 tops. One of the others... check out the cost of chokes, vents, emulsion tubes, jets etc. Multiply by two and sit down and take a good long swig of Wild Turkey.

My little sojourn with Graham Russell last year proved that SUs propeerly applied will out BHP, and over a wider rpm range than a Weber.

And that leads me to the next point - Attempting to fairly assess a singel SU against a single side-draught Weber/Dellorto (henceforth W/D coz I'm tired of doing teh full name check each time) is fundametally flawed. To make a more comparable comparison you should be talking twin SUs against a W/D. Noe we're getting close. Check out who has the best 'straight shot' at the port now.

Back to the single for the moment. You really have to get with how to make an SU work properly to make a serious comparison between a single SU and a W/D. Something that Graham and I have had plenty to discuss about following my visit last year. The dyno testing illustrated a number of issues not peviously understood by either of us. As his LS now confirms, you need a bigger SU than most think of using to make the performance these 1360/1380 engines are capable of.

Which moves me on to... Kevin - your recent rolling road test was hardly fair/comparable. Graham's engine is very old indeed and subject to mega-miles of trashing. Your motor is fresh and has one of Graham's newly developed camshfats and cylinder head on. I'd be a little un-happy if such a motor was mine with the benefit of several years R&D and got beaten by a well worn out and thrashed 8-year-old engine. It has damn near nothing to do with the carburation.

Oh - 'ram-air effect' - go see Calver's Corner on this subject on my website www.calverst.com

Where were we - oh, right. W/D on swan neck manifolds taht need no bulk head mods. These will only work well when ceratin explicit criteria are met. Almost all on the market don't. Graham and I have discussed making one that would work OK. But we get back to teh same question... Why? When a big single SU on one of his manifolds or twins on one of mine work so damned well...

And for the record - go for an HS6 rather than an HIF. The later may be a more finely tunable instrament as far as fuelling for economy and performance goes, the former is so much easier to deal with and will give better all over power. The HIF has a temp-sensing bimetallic strip controlling jet height. It leans the mixture out when under bonnet temps get up a bit... Just what you don't need on a performace engine. And teh HS fuel bowl carries more gas in it...

The downdraught carb, by the way, generally gives more torque/performance because of teh manifold design. It has inherantly more plenum volume than a typical W?D sidedraught.

And SUs most certainly do have an accelerator pump jet... piston depression on initial throttle opening causes an enrichment of the fuel.

Anbody still awake?

KC


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