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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:31 pm 
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dbr11k ya bastard you beat me to it


:) :lol:

i have the magazine somewhere i could fax it to you if u wanted

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Mearcat wrote:
Sheesh! As entertaining as this may be to some, can one of the mods throw a big bucket of cold water on this and please shut this sh!t fight down


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:43 pm 
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spraycanmansam wrote:
drmini in aust wrote:
Turbos spin up to around 100,000 rpm usually, good luck driving it that fast with a belt... :lol:
Centrifugal superchargers spin much slower, they are designed for belt drive and their scrolls are way bigger, they are not just converted turbos. :wink:


I was hoping someone would bring this up 8) The whole design of the impeller is completely different because of the lower rpm.

And I'm tired of hearing all about the 'drain of power' from a belt driven supercharger... anyone who says that turbos don't suck power from the engine are kidding themselves. Here's a quote of mine from another forum ---

Quote:
A supercharger loses power from having to be directly driven from a pulley type system off the engine. It takes power to make power, but the supercharger makes so much more power than it takes that you never notice it.

A turbo also robs power from the engine in the form of back-pressure. If someone tells you that a turbo doesn't use any energy from the engine, slap them :P because they're full of crap as it goes against the laws of physics! But like a supercharger, when the turbo hits boost it makes more power than the it takes. But until it does, you feel the power loss through 'lag', simple right? :D

If you had to choose which uses less power, that would be a turbo system which is why they make more horsepower per psi when compared to a supercharger.


There's probably a few technical errors in that logic, but you get the idea :wink:


Turbo's convert wasted heat loss into power, sure they use power but are far more efficient than a crank driven supercharger. Look at the current BINI, more power and 2L/kms LESS in average fuel consumption.

Daniel

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:02 pm 
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DOZ wrote:
spraycanmansam wrote:
drmini in aust wrote:
Turbos spin up to around 100,000 rpm usually, good luck driving it that fast with a belt... :lol:
Centrifugal superchargers spin much slower, they are designed for belt drive and their scrolls are way bigger, they are not just converted turbos. :wink:


I was hoping someone would bring this up 8) The whole design of the impeller is completely different because of the lower rpm.

And I'm tired of hearing all about the 'drain of power' from a belt driven supercharger... anyone who says that turbos don't suck power from the engine are kidding themselves. Here's a quote of mine from another forum ---

Quote:
A supercharger loses power from having to be directly driven from a pulley type system off the engine. It takes power to make power, but the supercharger makes so much more power than it takes that you never notice it.

A turbo also robs power from the engine in the form of back-pressure. If someone tells you that a turbo doesn't use any energy from the engine, slap them :P because they're full of crap as it goes against the laws of physics! But like a supercharger, when the turbo hits boost it makes more power than the it takes. But until it does, you feel the power loss through 'lag', simple right? :D

If you had to choose which uses less power, that would be a turbo system which is why they make more horsepower per psi when compared to a supercharger.


There's probably a few technical errors in that logic, but you get the idea :wink:


Turbo's convert wasted heat loss into power, sure they use power but are far more efficient than a crank driven supercharger. Look at the current BINI, more power and 2L/kms LESS in average fuel consumption.

Daniel


Yep I agree :) I just hate hearing 'Nah bro, superchargers suck bro, turbos don't use any power bro, fully sik' :roll: Last time I heard, they hadn't figured out perpetual motion :wink: But agreed, turbos are much more efficient than superchargers.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:39 am 
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DOZ wrote:
[ Look at the current BINI, more power and 2L/kms LESS in average fuel consumption.

Daniel


IIRC the turbo Bini uses a new engine, not the same as the old supercharged. so it is a bit difficult to compare especialy as the old chrysler one wasn't a "fuel saver"

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:15 am 
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KLAS wrote:
DOZ wrote:
[ Look at the current BINI, more power and 2L/kms LESS in average fuel consumption.

Daniel


IIRC the turbo Bini uses a new engine, not the same as the old supercharged. so it is a bit difficult to compare especialy as the old chrysler one wasn't a "fuel saver"


The engines are close enough IMHO, 1.6L 16V with 4 round metal things that go up and down. My point is BMW specifically went for economy (with no power loss) on the new engine and there is no supercharger anymore - ie a turbo is more efficient...

http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/A_109256/title_BMW-Technology-a-Breath-of-Fresh-Air-Literally-Report-Says/newsarticle.html wrote:
Additionally, the BMW Group’s MINI Cooper accounted for almost half of BMW’s overall fuel economy improvements.


Additionally, the Cooper variant is only 14% more efficient than the old model whereas the Cooper 'S' is closer to 18%.

Daniel

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:08 pm 
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DOZ wrote:
The engines are close enough IMHO, 1.6L 16V with 4 round metal things that go up and down.

i know that you know that it's more about the small differences :wink:

Quote:
My point is BMW specifically went for economy
they had no other choice
Quote:
a turbo is more efficient...
no doubt about that, just a look at the data sheets shows that. turbos can go up to 75%+ effectivity, a SC is happy to reach 60%

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:14 pm 
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I'm trying to upload the scans of the article but photobucket of sh!t is screwing me around, 3 days and it still wont up load the pics :x
Anyway this is what I have so far, if any one else can fill in the rest it probably would be quicker :roll: . (I'm not going to post the pages with only (useless) pics to save time and effort, so if you think I'm skipping vital info I'm not :wink: .)
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Last edited by Kennomini on Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:05 pm 
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KLAS wrote:
no doubt about that, just a look at the data sheets shows that. turbos can go up to 75%+ effectivity, a SC is happy to reach 60%


KLAS,

Sprintex, Whipple and Autorotor (et al) are claiming efficiencies of around 70% now with their twin-screw, positive displacement superchargers. They are also claiming rotor speeds in the order of 18,000rpm. This means physically smaller blowers for the same amount of cfm pumped. This speed would equate to roughly 35psi for the Supercharger, with inlet temps well down on the roots type blowers (like 1/2!)

Trying doing that with a turbo supercharger and you would need something the size of a GT70 with plenty of lag, not thanks! Gimme an engine that produces torque from idle, max torque at 2000rpm, and billiard-table flat right through to redline.

I for one would fit a supercharger over a turbo if I was doing one again .......hang on, I am!!! Less complicated, more flexible in the delivery and more reliable.

My $0.02

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:08 pm 
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Amen


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:17 pm 
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Ahhh all done^^^^^the only stuff missing is some pics of the breaks, cab and a couple of side views of the car none of which is important.

So tricky dose this mean an AWD mini with a nice big supercharger :D :wink: .

P.S. the mag was Mini World, November issue 2004.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:44 pm 
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Archangel007 wrote:
KLAS,

Sprintex, Whipple and Autorotor (et al) are claiming efficiencies of around 70% now with their twin-screw, positive displacement superchargers. They are also claiming rotor speeds in the order of 18,000rpm. This means physically smaller blowers for the same amount of cfm pumped. This speed would equate to roughly 35psi for the Supercharger, with inlet temps well down on the roots type blowers (like 1/2!)

Trying doing that with a turbo supercharger and you would need something the size of a GT70 with plenty of lag, not thanks! Gimme an engine that produces torque from idle, max torque at 2000rpm, and billiard-table flat right through to redline.

I for one would fit a supercharger over a turbo if I was doing one again .......hang on, I am!!! Less complicated, more flexible in the delivery and more reliable.

My $0.02
yes, i know. the modern Lysholm concept is getting better, but the turbos are, too. superchargers have lag, too. it's the way they try to resist changing thier speed. thats why they try to get the rotors as light as possible
my €0.02, there is no better system, both have advantages and disadvantages. you pick what you like or need. if you whant power from idle you go supercharged, you want power from the middle to redline go turbocharged. it works somehow like this.

oh, you want both? use both :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:56 pm 
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KLAS wrote:

oh, you want both? use both :D


Been a favourite configuration on large diesels for many years...(but for very different reasons).

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:57 pm 
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golf gt......125kw out of a 1.4L engine.... i loves it! :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:40 pm 
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Kennomini wrote:
So tricky dose this mean an AWD mini with a nice big supercharger :D :wink:.


Yes it does. Planning now on using a Sprintex S3-150 or similar pumping through a water cooled plenum/intercooler combo to make about 250-300hp at all four wheels. It wont be a big supercharger Kenno. Like I said, now that a screw-type can rev their tits off and not heat the air like a roots type do, we dont need huge displacement blowers. A sprintex S3-150 displaces 0.59 litre per revolution (compare that to a turbo - 0.001 litre per rev??) and can rev to 18,000 rpm, so a relatively low boost pressure should yield these kinds of figures. :wink:

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