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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:43 pm 
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Watto,

I feel a list of Oz Mini identifying markings/stampings coming on(!)

Many of us are aware of the common markings/stampings for our own model(s) of Oz Mini but I haven't seen a comprehensive published list. If the comments in this thread about markings on the boot lock and high beam floor switch are correct then I've learned something new today. When these questions come up in this Forum there are often responses from very well-meaning members along the lines of "I think this is right ..." or "I've heard that they had ..." or similar. Sometimes these contributions can confuse people.
I hope I'm not over-simplifying the situation by suggesting a 'Mini Identity Cheat Sheet' template be created and its contents completed over time as they are verified by some agreed 'experts'. It could list all Australian-produced Minis by Body Prefix (eg YG2S4 for my MK II S) and then clearly describe the markings that should be present for that model. In my case I believe it would include full Body Number stamped on the radiator shroud, Chassis Number stamped in the gutter over the wiper and 2/06 stamped upside down next to it, ADR Compliance plate riveted to the cross-member behind the power brake booster, production date stamped in the wiper motor cover plate, etc. etc.
I realise that there are anomalies and inconsistencies in some of this data as changes were sometimes made on the fly by the factory, but rather than highlight the problems and conclude it's all too hard we could concentrate on factors that are not in dispute. Where alternatives are possible this could be noted.
Of course there are other ways to identify certain models, such as twin tanks, thicker brake pedal, fuel pump breather, possible burst-proof doors, etc. for the MK II S but including all of this data means the list would probably end up as a book.
For now, how about we start with a stampings/markings cheat sheet that could be published as a sticky on this Forum?

Doug


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:31 pm 
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I don't like letting all the info to be in one place so that it is easier for people to make fake Cooper S's out of Delixes or for crooks to fake up stolen cars into other cars.

I will try to identify any BMC/Leyland product from the ID numbers, all you have to do is give me the numbers.

But I don't wish to let all the little tricks out.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:51 pm 
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Morris 1100,

I know exactly what you are saying and why, but I personally disagree with that approach. Back in my days of IT Security consulting (before retirement) it was called 'security by obscurity'.
You've mentioned the downside of full disclosure of this information but I believe the positives far outweigh the negatives. I see this information as being invaluable in helping to correctly identify an authentic vehicle whilst others might see it as a cook book to help create fakes. There will always be those who try to make a car (any make and model) into something it isn't, whether for financial gain or otherwise.

What do others think?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:57 pm 
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Maybe an updated (accurate ...) version of the info in the front of the mini car clinic catalogue (engine and car type/body number prefixes etc ) would be a handy item here but not all the details in one spot . All the info is availible on here already , people have just got to ask or search for it so they have to put an effort in rather than just harvesting it easily .

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:53 pm 
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That's my point. Why should legitimate Mini enthusiasts "ask for it and search for it" and have to "put in an effort"? This thread was started by someone who wanted to know how to identify cars that they (presumably) wanted to acquire. I simply don't agree that a few people with the knowledge should keep it secret and only divulge it once someone has managed to locate them and asked nicely. Watto is already heading down the full-disclosure route in TME with his excellent summaries of various models, including detailed pictures. My suggestion is simply to take this information to the next level.
I'm very happy to continue this discussion (debate?) in a friendly, healthy environment as it has been so far. At the moment I haven't changed my view but I remain open.
One day someone will publish all they know on this forum, on a website, in a book or magazine article so eventually (and hopefully) the finer details will be public knowledge before being lost forever. Remember most of this heritage data is not documented and will not be available for future generations unless it is collected and published.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:01 pm 
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I think i agree with with Winaby

I mean if somebody wanted to mock up a Cooper, cooper S or a GT or something (about the only cars it would be worthwhile copying), they know they are differnent to a normal mini and that every mini is not a cooper S (as some people assume :? ). They would only really need to do a search on google for differences in Cooper S's or the GT site (which mentions what makes a Gt a GT in detail).

Then when people do try to mock up Cooper S's etc it is very hard to copy, for example:

- the welded tabs in the boot reproduced look different to original.
- the r/h tank plate welded in boot
- If they retype lettering - diffrent font style/ not in the exact position
- Some original Parts cannot be reproduced, Eg chest covered blocks
- Most cars have a compliance/ id plate except 69 model which if somebody wanted to make one (cooper s), all they have to do is purchase the last mini exp mag and follow the details in it.


And i mean if they do try to rip of numbers there is no compilataion of all numbers available so they cannot really blindy guess a body number because chances are it still may exist and the RTA will bust them.

Anybody out to purchase a Cooper S etc should do there homework before purchasing anyway - i dont really think it would change the number of fakes being produced as there is today anyway

So i think that a compilation of what makes a mini a mini. Ie what bits make an 850, k, matic, sunshine etc. would be very helpful.

As mentioned already one day this information will be lost and available to nobody so i think it should be documented while it can be. What Watto is doing in the mini experience is basically a compilation of what makes a mini a mini, so to have it all in one place would be very helpful.

My opinion

Brenton
Thats my opinion

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:42 pm 
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Not surprisingly, I prefer the full-disclosure route. If I didn't, I couldn't publish the magazine with knowledge that I was witholding information delibrately from the readers. While we sometimes make mistakes, I publish all relevant information I can find.

Of course, once it is published, people treat it as gospel - "it is written , therefor it must be true". I know there are people who believe everything written in Pedre Davis book, Spotlight On Mini Minor Down Under, even though there are some glaringly obvious mistakes, and some information which has subsequently been shown to be incorrect, even though it has always been considered correct.

Our magazine is a living document - by that, I mean it is always being updated and where errors are found, they are usually corrected in following issues. However, it is only natural that some people will read something, and not see, or take in, any correction that follows. To them, the first point is gospel.

That is why I try to make my research as thorough as humanly possible.

I have a number of problems with the non-disclosure route.

Firstly, if the information is on hand with someone, who is not prepared to share it openly, then it takes a lot more work to try and find the information from other sources - sometimes relying on memories alone, which can be difficult after so many years. Also, many of the people with the information stored in their head are getting older, and sadly many are no longer with us. Unless this information is collected for posterity it will be lost with the people who currently posess it. Hoping your heirs will see value in a pile of papers on "those bloody old Minis" and pass it onto other people with an interest to do something with it all, is possibly blind faith. Just because you see value in it, doesn't mean other people will.

It also means that every time someone wants the information, they have to effectively go and re-invent the wheel. I see many such threads as this on Ausmini, of people wanting to identify Minis, and every time it is the same flow of information, usually from the same people. Having a single place to look up such information will not only save the enquiree a lot of time in trying to find the information, but will save everyone else with information from having to repeat it all every few weeks, to satisfy the interest of some new member of the forum.

As for the production of fake cars - the provision of information has a much greater positive impact on people wishing to identify cars, to avoid being caught buying a fake vehicle, than it has in a negative effect in giving information to the fraudsters who wish to make fake vehicles.

The way things are today, just about anybody can find enough information to know that Cooper S, for example, are different from the run-of-the-mill Mini, and what the major differences are. It is therefore fairly simple, and has always been so, for people intent on selling frauds to do so. While they will not be able to catch out true enthusiasts or experts, they will always get people with a little knowledge to believe the car is genuine.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. The more knowledge a person who is looking at buying a car can arm themselves with, in making sure they can identify even minor points on a vehicle to ensure its authenticity, the less likely they are to getting caught by a fake.

If people who intend to defraud others with fake vehicles realise that the information is freely and readily available, then they are going to either give up the idea of trying to con innocent purchasers, or will have to put so much work in to make sure their fake meets all the little nuances, that it will no longer be economically viable.

If a register, such as the one I am trying to put together, exists, which lists as much detail as possible about how a car was made, or what were the "normal" trim patterns, colours, etc available for a particular model, then people will have somewhere to go, as a starting point at least, to identify if a car they are looking at purchasing, is genuine.

When we publish articles about identifying various models, we ocassionally (and I have to admit, due to the amount of research that goes into each feature, it is a relatively rare happening) get feedback indicating mistakes that have been made. Unfortunately, some of these are from people who claim to have conflicting proof, and who knew the story was coming up, but who didn't volunteer the information prior to the story being published. "I'll wait and see if he gets the story right" seems to be the attitude.

It seems pointless in this sort of case, to then contact us and say we got it wrong. Either put the information out there for us to acces and to divest to our readers, or keep quiet about it. Don't wait until we publish and then tell us we got it wrong, especially if you are then not prepared to give us the information to make the corrections in a later issue.

Don't take this to mean I don't wnat to know when we make mistakes. Far from it. Every bit of information we get adds to the overall picture and helps complete the puzzle. There are a number of our readers who are themselves researching verious aspects about their own cars. In many cases, as they discover new and interesting information, they pass it onto me, so I can put it in the magazine.

Of course, not everything goes in as soon as I get it. some information is pertinent to stories that are in the pipeline, and this new information helps to make the story more complete.

I have also spoken to a number of people over the past few years who claim to have original BMC/Leyland factory documentation about Minis production (and other cars), but who won't share the information because they are "writing a book". Frankly, if anyone is considering writing a book on the the production history of the Mini, and feels that sharing any of the information prior to the book being published will ruin their market for the book, then there isn't much substance or depth to the book. A book needs to be far more than a list of facts and figures to be of interest.

If you truly are writing a book, then write it. Get the information out there. Arm the masses, as it were. If not, someone else will.

I have a great deal of respect for Gordon Smyth in Western Australia.

Gordon planned on doing a book on Moke production in Australia. In fact, he had got a fair way in the planning of the book, some of the chapters to be included, and even basic layouts for some pages.

After more than 20 years, he realised the book just wasn't going to happen. He recently contacted me and offered me all his material on Mokes, which I now have. He wanted the information to be available to all Moke enthusiasts, and said there was no point him taking it to the grave with him.

Some of this information, and some of the photos, have smashed some long-held beliefs about Moke production, and opened my eyes to a fair bit that I never knew went on.

Some of this material has already been used. Some will be in the next issue, and most will eventually filter through the magazine as it becomes relevant to stories being looked at. It has also helped with some material to do with Minis, as the prodcution was so closely linked.

I would love to write a book about Mini and Moke production in Australia. Will it ever happen? Perhaps. Will giving the information out before-hand, through our magazine, make it any less likely? Absolutely not. Even if we managed to get the whole Mini story, in its entirety and every little detail, published in our magazine (a lofty, but probably unattainable ideal) there would still be a market for a book that brings it all together in one easily obtainable form.

Would having the information available on a website make the book any less markatable? Not at all. A website is a good place for such information. A living document, even more so than our magazine. A book gives the writer an opportunity to go into the minds of the people behind the scenes, to flesh out the facts and figures, to reach conclusions.

One of the most informative websites for information on the history of BMC-Leyland-Rover, anywhere, is unquestionably the Unofficial Austin Rover website - http://www.aronline.co.uk/

Does this website make books on the history of BMC-Rover, etc any the less in demand? It would seem not, with so many new books still coming out.

People are hungry for information, and many writers, publishers, etc are realising that there will always be a market to give the people what they want.

The Mini communtiy is basically a fairly small and close-knit one. The sharing of information openly will only serve to strengthen that community.

We have all been appalled at the number of Minis being stolen recently. The recovery of Leo and Maragaret Jack's Moke last year showed what can be achieved when we all work together. The crooks realised with all the publicitiy the theft had attracted, and that virtually every Mini or Moke enthusiast in the country was aware of the car, that it was simply too hot to handle, and left it in a side street to be discovered by the police.

If information about what makes a car genuine is available to everyone, then the crooks will realise the game is up, and it is not worth trying to pass off the fakes. They will still do what they do, but maybe they will look at other, less-informed, vehicle markets. I'm sure there will always be people stupid enough to think that shafting people is good business, but I would hope that those people would be too stupid to be able to build cars to fool well-informed prospective buyers.

There ends my rant.

Cheers,
Watto.


Last edited by watto on Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:49 pm 
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WOO HOO, well ranted Watto! :D :D

Seriously, I heartily support your viewpoints, with more open information it becomes harder to make a fake as the 'ordinary' folk will know how to spot one just as easily as a seasoned mini veteran.

If you ever write that Book Watto, I'll take 10 please!!!

Cheers

matt

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:47 pm 
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Couldn't have said it better myself.

In fact, Watto, looking at your grammar and phrasing, I reckon you might get a job as a journalist if whatever you currently do should come to an end!!

So, when's the true blue dinkum Mini book coming out?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:01 pm 
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I could say, "as soon as I know everything", but that will never happen.

Watto. :shock:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:47 pm 
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Back on topic!
I have a 1960 Morris 850 - Australian assembled.
Car No on LH side of speedo on firewall (close). Also on rear floor pan just behind driver's seat.
There is however another number on the RH side of the speedo on the firewall which is in the 50 thousands. Car numer is around 1000. ID Plate has Car No as 9\54494\****.
Admittedely this is a very early example and may not conform to what is typically found out there. I have seen one other very early car such as this and it had the same numbering placement and system.

Interestingly, the ID Plate is hand stamped which is the same a a very early Cooper plate that I have as well. This Cooper plate and the plate from my complete Cooper have six figure prefix numbers before the car number (cars are within 20 of each other and within the first 300 Australian Coopers produced) - not sure what these numbers signify?

Anyone got any ideas on the prefix numbers and what they might mean???


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:51 pm 
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I think the numbers are the UK numbers followed by the Australian numbers (I am sure that Sports 850 will help you better than I can.) They seemed to do this with all CKD cars built at Zetland and not just Minis.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:12 pm 
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Thanks Morris 1100
That makes a lot of sense. Wonder if the Heritage register can identify the CKD cars from the prefix number???
I have a later (1963 I think) 997 Cooper which doesn't have the six digit prefix number - start of Australian pressings? I need to closely compare the early and later Cooper shells I have to see if there are any differences!!!
Does anyone know exactly when Zetland started stamping panels?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:20 pm 
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Wild willy's 850 is the only one on the list that has that format , later ones had a 5 or 6 digit car number before the 4 or 5 digit body number with a 4 or so digit space between them .

watto wrote:
Of course, once it is published, people treat it as gospel - "it is written , therefor it must be true". I know there are people who believe everything written in Pedre Davis book, Spotlight On Mini Minor Down Under, even though there are some glaringly obvious mistakes, and some information which has subsequently been shown to be incorrect, even though it has always been considered correct.


And then there's the likes of this one I bought today ,

Image

Have a look at the Australian History they've printed :shock: :shock: :shock: :lol:

Image

Quote:
The Zetland factory , just a few kilometers outside Sydney in South Australia

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:30 pm 
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No wonder they lost all the RECORDS!!!!


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