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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:48 pm 
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Give Ash some flowers Nick .
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I understand why you answered yourself Simon, obviously the only way of finding intelligent conversation ;)

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 Post subject: Yep
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:13 pm 
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simon k wrote:
simon k wrote:
could the little increase in RPM be due to the lack of resistance in the lead causing the charge to arrive at the plug earlier therefore advancing the timing?


:? :lol:


after testing one of my Bosch leads @ 1.75Kohm, I consulted my radio/electronics guru at work - he agreed that the resistance is only there for radio interference, and that the (substantially) lower resistance would give a better spark because the "rise time" of the charge reaching the end of the lead is a lot quicker - electricity isn't ON and OFF - putting a charge on a piece of wire will build up (really f*cking fast of course) - higher resistance means the build up will be slower, and I guess that the whole charge mightn't reach the end of the lead before the spark jumps, lower resistance means that the whole charge is likelier to hit the end of the lead before the spark jumps.... or something


Yesbut...what does the pulse look like from the coil when it hits the plug...if you don't allow sufficient time for a nice square wave to form or there is an impedance mismatch that is less than optimum...you could be fueling yourself :D

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 Post subject: Re: Yep
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:05 pm 
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9YaTaH wrote:
simon k wrote:
simon k wrote:
could the little increase in RPM be due to the lack of resistance in the lead causing the charge to arrive at the plug earlier therefore advancing the timing?


:? :lol:


after testing one of my Bosch leads @ 1.75Kohm, I consulted my radio/electronics guru at work - he agreed that the resistance is only there for radio interference, and that the (substantially) lower resistance would give a better spark because the "rise time" of the charge reaching the end of the lead is a lot quicker - electricity isn't ON and OFF - putting a charge on a piece of wire will build up (really f*cking fast of course) - higher resistance means the build up will be slower, and I guess that the whole charge mightn't reach the end of the lead before the spark jumps, lower resistance means that the whole charge is likelier to hit the end of the lead before the spark jumps.... or something


Yes but...what does the pulse look like from the coil when it hits the plug...if you don't allow sufficient time for a nice square wave to form or there is an impedance mismatch that is less than optimum...you could be fueling yourself :D



I've had a long think about this since the last time it was raised, and learnt a few extra things about traveling waves as well...it's interesting to me, but I don't know if it will interest anyone else...


The velocity of the pulse isn't really an issue, it's in the order of 1 to 1.5 x 10^8 ( 100 to 150 million meters per second). So for our puny earthling needs, it is a casual pace of about 3 nano seconds from one end of the lead to the other or (to really put it to bed) .0015 pico degrees degrees of crank rotation @ 5000rpm.

The square wave pulse is a really nasty signal which produces infinite harmonics across the frequency range. The inductance caused by the coiled carbon rounds conductor and the capacitance caused by the dielectric in the insulation rounds off the leading edge of the waveform. This energy is not lost but is stored as a magnetic field around the wire. When the square pulse passes, the collapsing magnetic field is fed back into the tail end of the square pulse. The traveling waveform now looks like a breaking wave at the beach moving backwards as the inductance acts on the square wave. No energy is lost and the pulse duration may be lengthened slightly, without exact values for inductance in the lead, I have no idea if this extra duration is of any benifit or so small it doesn't matter..

The rounding off of the leading and the tailing off of the trailing edge removes (suppresses) the vast majority of harmonic frequencies which normally carry right on through the FM and AM radio bands.

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 Post subject: Re: Yep
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:54 am 
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Mick wrote:
9YaTaH wrote:
simon k wrote:
simon k wrote:
could the little increase in RPM be due to the lack of resistance in the lead causing the charge to arrive at the plug earlier therefore advancing the timing?


:? :lol:


after testing one of my Bosch leads @ 1.75Kohm, I consulted my radio/electronics guru at work - he agreed that the resistance is only there for radio interference, and that the (substantially) lower resistance would give a better spark because the "rise time" of the charge reaching the end of the lead is a lot quicker - electricity isn't ON and OFF - putting a charge on a piece of wire will build up (really f*cking fast of course) - higher resistance means the build up will be slower, and I guess that the whole charge mightn't reach the end of the lead before the spark jumps, lower resistance means that the whole charge is likelier to hit the end of the lead before the spark jumps.... or something


Yes but...what does the pulse look like from the coil when it hits the plug...if you don't allow sufficient time for a nice square wave to form or there is an impedance mismatch that is less than optimum...you could be fueling yourself :D



I've had a long think about this since the last time it was raised, and learnt a few extra things about traveling waves as well...it's interesting to me, but I don't know if it will interest anyone else...


The velocity of the pulse isn't really an issue, it's in the order of 1 to 1.5 x 10^8 ( 100 to 150 million meters per second). So for our puny earthling needs, it is a casual pace of about 3 nano seconds from one end of the lead to the other or (to really put it to bed) .0015 pico degrees degrees of crank rotation @ 5000rpm.

The square wave pulse is a really nasty signal which produces infinite harmonics across the frequency range. The inductance caused by the coiled conductor and the capacitance caused by the dielectric in the insulation rounds off the leading edge of the waveform. This energy is not lost but is stored as a magnetic field around the wire. When the square pulse passes, the collapsing magnetic field is fed back into the tail end of the square pulse. The traveling waveform now looks like a breaking wave at the beach moving backwards as the inductance acts on the square wave. No energy is lost and the pulse duration may be lengthened slightly, without exact values for inductance in the lead, I have no idea if this extra duration is of any benifit or so small it doesn't matter..

The rounding off of the leading and the tailing off of the trailing edge removes (suppresses) the vast majority of harmonic frequencies which normally carry right on through the FM and AM radio bands.


Does that get you extra marks for your degree?

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 Post subject: Re: Yep
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:51 am 
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Mick wrote:

I've had a long think about this since the last time it was raised, and learnt a few extra things about traveling waves as well...it's interesting to me, but I don't know if it will interest anyone else...


The velocity of the pulse isn't really an issue, it's in the order of 1 to 1.5 x 10^8 ( 100 to 150 million meters per second). So for our puny earthling needs, it is a casual pace of about 3 nano seconds from one end of the lead to the other or (to really put it to bed) .0015 pico degrees degrees of crank rotation @ 5000rpm.

The square wave pulse is a really nasty signal which produces infinite harmonics across the frequency range. The inductance caused by the coiled carbon rounds conductor and the capacitance caused by the dielectric in the insulation rounds off the leading edge of the waveform. This energy is not lost but is stored as a magnetic field around the wire. When the square pulse passes, the collapsing magnetic field is fed back into the tail end of the square pulse. The traveling waveform now looks like a breaking wave at the beach moving backwards as the inductance acts on the square wave. No energy is lost and the pulse duration may be lengthened slightly, without exact values for inductance in the lead, I have no idea if this extra duration is of any benifit or so small it doesn't matter..

The rounding off of the leading and the tailing off of the trailing edge removes (suppresses) the vast majority of harmonic frequencies which normally carry right on through the FM and AM radio bands.


So is the output of a coil a true square wave if measured say with a plain copper lead and a spark plug connected ? and what do you mean by coiled carbon rounds? I have seen the innards of leads that look like a coiled stainless steel spring, do they also have a similarly coiled carbon conductor ? I am just trying to work this out :?: :?: :?:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:04 am 
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The input to the coil (which is a low to high voltage transformer) is a 12 volt DC switched on and off very quickly. This creates a square wave. The output of the coil will resemble the input waveform and this is the pulse that travels up the ignition lead. It won't be exactly the same shape as the inductance of the coil will also change the waveform somewhat.

Coiled conductors of any material (carbon, copper, stainless) will always create an inductor. An inductor acts exactly like a large mechanical flywheel, in that it resists any change in energy flowing through it. It will store the initial energy in a magnetic field and then deliver this back to the system once the energy pulse has passed. Nothing is lost.

The resistance combined with the inductance of the lead will work together to reduce the rate of coil discharge, this will create coil duration combined.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:14 am 
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This is a random image, but is diplays what an inductance can do to a square wave. they are overlayed on the top graph. There will also be a phase shift (slight retardation) but this is not important here. it takes the cobination of the inductance (to store the charge in it's own magnetic field) and the resistance of the lead(to slow it's charge and discharge cycle) to create the waveform's duration.

In our situation, the waveform would go from zero to +ve as well, so ignore he -ve value shown below.

Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:21 am 
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I have an electrical background, was wondering about the output of the coil I didn't think it could be a true square wave form, And am wondering how the leads you spoke of were constructed, are they a coiled carbon conductor ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:40 am 
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Leads can also be constructed as a stright piece of stainless wire or carbon impregnated conductor, in this case the dielectric around the conductor acts as a capacitor storing energy. This energy is stored and released as the pulse passes. This can cause problems in long lead lengths as it requires more energy to be provided by the coil, and also dumps a large amount of energy into the spark plug at once. this can cause damage to the plug and aresistor plug is needed to dissapate some of the energy as heat.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Yep
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:55 am 
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mickmini wrote:

Does that get you extra marks for your degree?


No, they tried to teach me this stuff as an apprentice in the early 90s...it didn't work so well then, but has started to sink in over time.

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 Post subject: Re: Yep
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:44 pm 
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Mick wrote:
[ The inductance caused by the coiled carbon rounds conductor and the capacitance caused by the dielectric in the insulation rounds off the leading edge of the waveform. .

Sorry this is the bit I want to to know about


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:11 pm 
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That itself was a typo. The inductance rounds the leading edge of the voltage pulse

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:16 pm 
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ok thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Yep
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:16 pm 
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Mick wrote:
mickmini wrote:

Does that get you extra marks for your degree?


No, they tried to teach me this stuff as an apprentice in the early 90s...it didn't work so well then, but has started to sink in over time.


scary that. when i was looking at some signal processing stuf a while back everything i thought my brain had rejected about fast fourier transforms came rushing back :shock:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:21 pm 
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I think despite the brain's instinctive rejection of the principles of fourier analysis and laplace transformation, it somehow manages to sink in...like a cancer.... :shock:

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