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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:37 pm 
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TheMiniMan wrote:
If you don`t really want to learn how to do all this,,, &/or don`t want to spend the years it takes to learn how to swing a die grinder inside a 5 port A series cyl head without wrecking it & starting again on another, & another & another to gain the first hand experience working out what works with "Your" engine & what doesn`t,,, & what works with "His/her" engine & why it doesn`t with yours,,, & vice versa,,, but you still want a dam good flowing cyl head that works extreamly well at & throughout all revs (low, mid & high) then just buy one of my twin cam motorbike cyl head conversions :-)


:lol: :lol: :P A true salesman to the end Matt :!: :P :lol: :lol: Love your work :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:15 pm 
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TheMiniMan wrote:
I have this theory that excess weight is horse power lost,,, fair to say yeah???

Therfore suffice to say that if we removed all 4 road wheels then the car must of course become faster , right?

:-)

For my own personal race head i use ex-Indycar titanium test valves, thin the stems down & trimmed down heads to 36.8mm for the inlets & 31.4m for the exhausts (i also use motorbike valves in some other race heads) :-)

my own offset guides to suit

1.5 rockers

very broad short radius on the inlet port area as it encroches into the chamber,,,, barely touch the peak between the inlets in the siamesed section & only to help round it off gently,,, CAUTION HERE!!!--->if you sharpen this peak you will then creat hollows & swirl-pools in the areas either side of the peak , effectively creating smaller pathways into each inlet valve at the siamesed section... much like a sharp edge at the mouth of a carby does.

Obviously de-shrouding the chamber around the valves is of vital imoprtance to chamber filling characteristics & gass flow, so this should go without saying but is often either overdone causing head gasket issues,,, or left without enough attention to detail.

I reduce the peak in the chamber quite substantially but don`t remove it completely,,, the theory is simply so the head doesn`t crack there, as they get quite thin in that area & also to leave a tad there in an attempt to help push the gasses or help prevent the inlet gasses running straight across & out the exhaust hole during overlap period,,,, i also creat a dent or gully (for want of a better description) at & around the spark plug, more like a broad depression from the inlet valve in a gentle arc past the spark plug & across to the exhaust valve,,, those last 2 modifications tend to cause an action much like "Sheep-through-a-gate" in that once gasses start moving in that direction, then more will follow the same path... Again , simply a small mod to aid the direction of flow against running gasses straight across & out the exhaust valve in turn helping to fill the chamber & creat a better flame front & direction of flow.

I also try to shape the chamber more like a rounded bell shaped bath,,, sort of hemi shape if you will,,, & yeah i know it`s impossible but i do the best i can as it actually does creat more grunt & better squish.... & obviously pollish the chambers & at the same time (while pollishing) i make them all the correct & same size to suit the intended application.

Inlet port work should be aimed more at "ANGLES" rather than size,,, it`s far more impotant to utilise the direction of flow than the size of the hole... EG:--> If we took a std-ish 1275 cyl head & looked at the inlet valve size (33mm-ish),,, then we take a few mm off for the valve seats widths ,,, then we take another 7mm off for the valve stem,,, well we only end up with about 23mm-ish across,,, so you can all work out your areas from that but it isn`t much hey???,,, so what`s the point of making the inlet port 50mm diam when we can only use 23mm diam at the valves area??? Got that???

The valve seat area is the most important part to work , you want to "BELL-MOUTH" it (people tend to use 3 angle valve seats but it`s more to get them into the shape of a rolled radius or bell mouth than any speical series of sharp edged angles,,, got that??? & please don`t make valve seats too wide thinking that you`ll get a better seal,,, wider seats don`t last as long, but too narrow & they will over heat,,, there`s a "Just-Right" width for all different applications.

& even just prior to the valve seat area it`s good to get rid of some (or all) of the valve guide boss,,,, but i try to leave a small shaped up-peak prior to the valve stem to help to "start" to divide the gasses before they just simply smash onto a round valve stem,,, so getting rid of the guide boss completely isn`t often the best thing to do,,, get it???

OK<<<OK<<< so it`s not "ALL" about avaliable hole diameters or lack of guide bosses,,, we can all say it`s more about the area of the hole avaliable yeah?,,, well yes it`s that but it`s "ALSO" got to do with what`s called "Valve Curtain Area" too,,, lets just picture the valve open fully to whatever the cam & rockers give us...ok? then lets pretend we have made a little shower curtin all the way around it , now measure the area of the curtain used,,, easy really hey?,,, valve diam in half,,, then meat pie x radius squared = area of hole then x length of curtain = valve curtain area right? good ,,, you`re getttng the picture with avaliable space to pass gasses through now, sweet, that`s one big chunk of wonderfullness understood yeah?

But it`s all not just about what you can cram in there at full valve lift either hey????? there`s way more than just a few tricks at full tilt,,, we need to get as much gass as we can, all moving as fast we can, as early as we can... & physics is the name of the game here... there`s a big package of the sh!t to think about.

Now,,, the point i was getting at a bit earlier is more about the "ANGLES",,, so,,, if you look into a mini cyl head inlet port,,, & take a one "side" view from the edge of the port & run your eye down that first angle on the side of the initial part of the port & line up the flat section or align it`s "Runner" , you`ll see it roughly points at the peak inbetween the 2 valves in the siamesed right deep inside the port , yeah???,,, well most cyl heads have their runners aimed at landing gasses (or pointing that side of them into the direction of)behind the peak & hit it before the opposing valve,,, we would much rather it land almost right on the peak of the peak but with a tendancy to land it just after & just a tad into the opposit side of the peak to help direct gasses over that way & not hit it before the peak,,, same with the other side of the port,,, so in effect we can pretend we are "crossing-over" our gasses & aiming them from one runner on one side of the port over to just a tad on the other side of the peak... there`s quite a few dam good reasons why we want to make these angles work for us, but if i typed all about the whole lot right here, right now then i might as well type a whole dam book about it all & i`d be here all night ( & the next few weeks) :-)

BUT!!!!!!!!! if we made the smallest part of our inlet port (about an inch or so inside the head) too dam big, then we`d need an even bigger entry hole at the mouth of the port to keep that alignment ,or runner, aiming at our peak yeah?,,, imagin it, or even better still, "Draw" it on a piece of paper & you`ll be able to work out how big you can go in reality,,,it`s quite common to open the port up so big that they break into the push rod holes & we can simply sleave them & go again,,, narrow down the tips of the push rods so we can get them back in their holes when building the engine, yeah??? easy hey?,,,, but in reality , we can only go so big untill we loose that decent angle,,, & a "Massive" inlet port is just "NOT" what we need , nor want, especially on a road engine

Road & race heads are 2 different kettles of fish , so don`t confuse to 2,,, but in general we can try to blend "some" of the stuff we do on race heads into our road heads ,"WITHIN-REASON" ......& if you don`t go stupid with sizes loosing your angles in the process,,, well maybe you`ll end up with a half decent cyl head :-)

now that`s a dam good start for you all if interested in "Playing" with cyl head porting,,, there`s a whole bunch of other techniques used to good effect & there`s a whole bunch more that can be done in other areas too,,, but i`m not going to part with all my little tricks & secrets :-)

If you don`t really want to learn how to do all this,,, &/or don`t want to spend the years it takes to learn how to swing a die grinder inside a 5 port A series cyl head without wrecking it & starting again on another, & another & another to gain the first hand experience working out what works with "Your" engine & what doesn`t,,, & what works with "His/her" engine & why it doesn`t with yours,,, & vice versa,,, but you still want a dam good flowing cyl head that works extreamly well at & throughout all revs (low, mid & high) then just buy one of my twin cam motorbike cyl head conversions :-)


great read Matt..... any pictures to go with it? :D I've got a head I want to have a go at in the coming weeks

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:59 pm 
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Thanks for the responses guys, Matt, ive read yours 3 times and its begining to make sense! i think....

so is the twinky though! Not sure im game to get out the grinder! perhaps ill prictice on the briggs and stratton ports!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:30 pm 
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BALLISTIC wrote:
TheMiniMan wrote:
If you don`t really want to learn how to do all this,,, &/or don`t want to spend the years it takes to learn how to swing a die grinder inside a 5 port A series cyl head without wrecking it & starting again on another, & another & another to gain the first hand experience working out what works with "Your" engine & what doesn`t,,, & what works with "His/her" engine & why it doesn`t with yours,,, & vice versa,,, but you still want a dam good flowing cyl head that works extreamly well at & throughout all revs (low, mid & high) then just buy one of my twin cam motorbike cyl head conversions :-)


:lol: :lol: :P A true salesman to the end Matt :!: :P :lol: :lol: Love your work :wink:


I want Dyno results ATW or Crank

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:05 pm 
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gafmo wrote:
BALLISTIC wrote:
TheMiniMan wrote:
If you don`t really want to learn how to do all this,,, &/or don`t want to spend the years it takes to learn how to swing a die grinder inside a 5 port A series cyl head without wrecking it & starting again on another, & another & another to gain the first hand experience working out what works with "Your" engine & what doesn`t,,, & what works with "His/her" engine & why it doesn`t with yours,,, & vice versa,,, but you still want a dam good flowing cyl head that works extreamly well at & throughout all revs (low, mid & high) then just buy one of my twin cam motorbike cyl head conversions :-)


:lol: :lol: :P A true salesman to the end Matt :!: :P :lol: :lol: Love your work :wink:


I want Dyno results ATW or Crank

Me too. Preferably on an engine dyno (less fudge factor). :)
Maybe I'm just a cynic but if these heads `flow so darn good', why does the K1100 bike only have about 100HP? (and I bet putting an A series under it adds friction compared to a K1100). :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:04 pm 
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dave walker in the UK mapped 2 minis, ons was a KAD conversion turbo charged and the other was a BMW turbo head conversion, same turbo and and computer and they both made over 200hp at the wheels but the BMW had a smoother power delivery and a much better torque spread.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:22 pm 
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OK... leave off with the hairdryers, I've seen a 5 port iron head with turbo give 240HP briefly.
What HP do these heads make on an N/A Mini, or gimme some airflow figures... :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:27 pm 
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Doc,,, they make 90hp on a 1000cc engine ,,, & 100hp on an 1100cc

I`ve not seen very many 100hp 1100cc minis driving around the streets hey???

& definately no-where-near as smoooooooooooth as silk like a Bimmer is :-)

I`ll post the dyno figures when i get around to finishing off all the twinky engines/cars that i`m building.

If you can`t wait then keep an eye on the guys in England, they`re about to have their Bimmer Twinky Dyno day early feb,,, should be very interesting

:-)

Now lets add a few hundred ccs into the picture,,, yeah??? like maybe something your 1412cc stroker with a twinky head on top,,, yeah???,,, it would obviously be very much more than a 100hp hey???

How many Aussie race minis have 100hp at the wheels & how rough are they to drive???

it`s not ''"ALL""" about """HOW MUCH POWER"""",,, But the refinement & drive-ability & efficiency & smoothness etc,,, it just so happens to actually produce far more power than the average 5 port as well :-)

It`s just simple physics... The engineers at BMW are not stupid.

As Jon said,,, even on power between the KAD & the Bimmer,,, but the Bimmer wins on a far better power spread.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:21 pm 
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drmini in aust wrote:
OK... leave off with the hairdryers, I've seen a 5 port iron head with turbo give 240HP briefly.
What HP do these heads make on an N/A Mini, or gimme some airflow figures... :wink:



It is comparing a known good design KAD twin cam against a bmw head, whether its got a hairdyrer or not is irelevent it was a back to back test on engines both running the same CCs with the same fuel injection and management sytem , same hairdyers with the same boost with prtty much the same plumbing and intercoolers so a very reasonable test, or do you also recckon KAD heads dont flow

I have also seen 5 ports produce big horsepower with huffers but they are called hand grenades and any idiot can build one of those, but these engines were built for road use not outright power figures which are bull anyway and in no way show what an engine is good for

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:49 pm 
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Oh!!!,,, & just for the record,,, & to help answer Docs question as to why they only have 100hp---> BMW did their R&D & testing on the K series engine at approx 200hp for a simulated few years of running,,, then they taimed them down to 100hp & sold them knowing full well that they`re never going to blow up.

& 2ndly,,, Just bare with me for the moment & allow me to babble a little please???--->

i struggle to understand why anyone would think that any average 4 cyl piston engine would have any more "significant" drag (or power losses) than any other providing they`re similar size & all std clearance issues are kept within realistic tolerances,,, The only thing that i can see & undestand is that with any given 5main bearing engine , there would be """more"" losses or drag with the extra 2 earings as compared to a 3 main bearing engine (Crank whip/flex at high revs forgiven,,, which as we all know -0r should by now- isn`t "TOO" much of a problem for the mini these days with a few little tricks easilly enabling revs over 7-8000rpms)

The Bimmer motorbikes also run "Anti-clockwise" & actually use a rather heavy, wide, large diam drive gear (part of the crankshaft) as a "return/change in direction" gear so it can drive their conventional gearbox supplied from their previous models,,, so their recipricating mass isn`t really "that" far off a std issue mini engines masses.

so i find it hard to understand why anyone would think that fitting a Bimmer head on an 1100cc mini would make it produce any "significantly" less horse-power than the bike,,, bar a tiny bit extra recipricating mass internally,,, they both still have 4 pistons & 3 piston rings on each piston, the mini conversion has an extra cam & a little extra weight on the cam drive pulleys,,, that`s about all i can see that`s any different (apart from optimising cam profiles to suit each application)

soooo,,, lets take 10hp out of the equation for that lot then yeah??? NO!!!,,, lets make it 15hp just to make it sound even worse ok?

100hp for the bike yeah?,,, makes 85hp then for an 1100cc smooth drive-able road mini ,,, 85hp for an 1100cc,,, who do you know that has an 1100cc A series mini with smooth 85hp???

now lets take 20hp off that to ge it all to the wheels & we now have an approx 65hp AT THE WHEELS ,,, ok not mind shattering by any means right???,,, But don`t forget we took 15hp out of it for the sake of argument,,, lets pretend only half that was waranted, now we add 7hp back on yeah?,,,makes 72hp now AT THE WHEELS ---> hey???

72hp smooth road driving 1100cc road mini ??????? 72hp at the wheels??? smooth???...........yes!

well,,, sorry but all i can see is the average 5 port, 1100cc """ROAD""" mini struggling to make even 45 or maybe 50hp -->AT THE WHEELS,,, & that mini would be a fair bit lumpy & rough & consume some fuel to do it.

Now lets talk doing some work to the Bimmer head now shall we??? yeah??? maybe we`ll add a couple of decent lift & duration cams,,, open up & shape the holes & fit bigger valves etc etc etc,,, What i`m leading to here is that we "HAVE-TO" open up a 5 port 1100cc & add a bigger cam etc to get that 45 or 50hp from our 1100cc road mini ... so to be fair, lets open up a bimmer head & then see how much more go it has yeah???

OH!!! That`s right ---> BMW have allready done that with the release of their 140hp 1200cc unit

OH!!!! 140hp,,, sorry,,, what did you say??? 140hp???? from a std road going smooth reliable, efficient, drive-able, 1200ccs,,,,,, OOooooooH ...Mmmmmmm.........

what was that again???

140hp

yes,,, 14
0hp

Oh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

basically that would mean we would see over 160hp N/A from something like a 1380 or 1415cc mini engine with some decent work done to the head & a pair of cams profiled to suit the application

oh!!! that`s right,,, that`s allready happened

People,,, please realise that the proof of flow of these heads is allready well prooven & well documented,,, just because some of you havn`t seen it yet doesn`t mean it hasn`t happened

One very well known example ==> RB Racing in the states are producing (& have been for approx 15 years) well over 300hp from these cyl heads on 1200cc engines

I know what they can do,,, i`ve driven my twinky for nearly a year on the road, it`s now turbo charged,,, i have 4 other engines being built & when i get some spare time i will build my 2 turbo twinky race engines as well, when all that lot happens i will show you all dyno sheets from them

until then i don`t mind a spot of surfing &/or down hill mountain biking & building my house,,, & repairing broken gearboxes in my kombi :-(
my customers are first priority, but when the surf is up, or the boys want to go for a DH ride,,, well,,, that`s where i will be.

Twinkys are being built all over the world & at an alarming rate,,, just grab any issue of mini mag or mini world & you will notice more & more feature articles on them

& before anyone bashes me about it,,, No,,, they`re not "CHEAP",,, You really do get what you pay for tho... Smooth, Refined, Efficiency with Excellent Broad Spread Power.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:33 pm 
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TheMiniMan wrote:
The only thing that i can see & undestand is that with any given 5main bearing engine , there would be """more"" losses or drag with the extra 2 earings as compared to a 3 main bearing engine


True enough, but aren't something like 70% of the friction losses in an internal combustion engine down to the rings? As you say, the BMW bike engine and the A-series have the same number of rings, so there's likely to be --><-- that much difference in friction losses between them.

Can't wait to see and/or drive one of these things... 8)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:01 am 
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Well done matt .. just like always beautifully written ..
you actually make it very easy to understand ..

when will people get the message that these twin cams are the BEST way to go to get power (and look and sound dead sexy :D ) 5 ports do have their place when you have to use them e.g. cost .. or in my case not allowed to have a twin cam in historic touring cars :evil: ... and i even wouldn't mind seeing one of these things up against a 5 port with forced induction e.g. slinkys 1330 running 6 psi 85ish at the wheels .. a STANDARD twinky head on a 1330 should produce about the same... while still being a lot smoother to drive ... it doesnt matter what sort of head you use it's all down to volumetric efficiancy how well and how much you can get the gasses in and how quickly you can get the gasses back out

Don't mock other heads just because you don't think they will work ..

Thanks BEANIE

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:42 pm 
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140 at 10500 rpms, like to see the 1100 run at that speed for any length of time. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:08 pm 
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Agreed smiffy, I don't believe the hype, not for one minute. Unless the cams have been reground to suit power on at a lower rev range, which will i fact change the power it produces, there won;t be any 140hp minis with an 1100.
Another point matt, you say there is no difference in one 1100 motor, bmw bike, or a-series mini in what you will get out of it.... really? so a 40 year old block and crank with heavy as hell counterweights is going to be as strong as a perfectly balanced alloy block and lightweight crank.... i don;t think so.

Bring one down to GR and stick it on his Dyno, no blower, nothing fancy bore size wise. bolt it onto an 1100 std, and lets see the real figures.

Im a non believer until i see dyno graphs on a dyno i know and trust......

Sorry

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:34 pm 
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Aaron mate

you might want to read Matts bit again, he said standard with allowances of around 65=70 hp at the wheels and after maybe some cam changes and head work as per the 1200 cc BMW they might get 140hp and I think that is what you also suggested in your bit and peak power on the BMW is not at 12,000 RPM nor is the peak torque reading which is much more important than the peak power reading

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