That's the important bit - I think people are getting too hung up on numbers ...that's not to say the BMW twinkys don't put out the numbers, just I think there's more important things than 'how many hp does it make bro?' ..like a nice sweet torque curve For instance I think everyone will agree that a BMW twinky with 100hp and a 5-porter making 100hp will be two different beasts entirely...


Well ok, it's not quite 140hp and it's not quite an 1100 but for those that want numbers, heres a 970cc with a BMW Twinky conversion making 132hp on the engine dyno

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=m_sd7StOLnU

I love the noises that engine makes and thats all the proof that you need there ...970cc 132 hp with webers and points

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=WBToBq6Oejo

or this one thats making 107 atw.. with 100foot pound of toruqe it's a 1293 with a standard 8 valve

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I am the son of the STIG

HOTBRICKS
http://hotbricks.org.au/

'65 NCF MINI.....
'69 MINIMATIC.... 9 year resto still on the go

I am still waiting to see some real power figures, not guesstimates, not UK results either as we have all seen the unbelievable figures they pull out of 998's etc.....


Until one goes on a dyno(an engine Dyno) I won't beleive, sorry.
At least get some flow figures up so people can see....

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that 970 would be most suited to a bimmer head because it has a tiny stroke and a longer rev range.

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well,,, there are lots & lots of twinkys being built at the moment,,, Rome wasn`t built in a day tho

& what`s the problem with Rolling Road Dyno figures??? (altho i do agree you Aaron about some of the English figures not really being quite ,,, err,,, ar.,,.. how shall i say this???--> "in slight error on the higher than reralistic side"

However... Dyno Dynamics rolling road Dynos here in Australia are ("Usually") pretty dam accurate things & i must admit that i rather a more "Real-Life" figure at the ground, rather than an engine dyno where it`s not pushing anything along,,, & is easy spiked & then there are the problems where --->is it driving the box or not driving the box???, some leave the idler gear in & others take the idler gear out or have an empty box etc etc etc,,, & yes i understand that they`re intention is to get a more pure engine only power result & therfore the box "Should" be disconected... but not all engine dynos disconect the box, so there are discrepancies in all the different engine dynos,,, as is also between duel roller dynos, single roller dynos, water brake dynos, electric brake dynos, single wheel dynos,,, who really cares what type of brake mech they use??? They`re all over the place anyways & either a figure to the crank or a figure to the road doesn`t really make "THAT" much difference (20hp-ish) when it`s easy enough to take roughly 20hp off to guestimate the figure at the wheels... so why is there such a following for figures at the crank??? What`s wrong with figures at the wheels???

Now i`m Not pretending to know all about dynos mind you,,, just that i`m more for a closer to real life situation ,,, where you would be with the whole car loaded down pushing some thing along is more realistic isn`t it??? tyres gripping the rollers, running hotter than normal, no tail wind to help, no down hill, no help at all & usually way more losses than an engine dyno, so i`d be more swayed to believe an Australian rolling road dyno (eg: Dyno Dynamics) than any easilly spiked ,,, set soft,,, engine dyno like i know some people have

& the case in question about wanting power figures for the Bimmer Twinkys???,,,, In my post above , I have taken about 15hp off the bike figure to allow for the extra losses through a mini donk,,, do you really think it would take more than that to drive a slightly heavier drive train mini engine??? ___ Really???

ok then---> some early Vee-Dubs only had 1100cc engines putting out 25hp,,, it pulled along a whole car & quite well i might add,,, even making it hard for a mini to beat it at Bathurst if anyone rembers well... now that`s just showing what 25hp does,,, a decent small bore mini these days may have about 33 at the wheels,,, that`s taking into account the drive train losses,,, that`s "AT" the wheels,,, so now lets take off some from that good old Vee-Dub & see what it has "AT" the wheels yeah??? getting my picture now>???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

is anyone going to bother to argue with me that 15hp is actually a MASSIVE chunk to take out of the equation as a guestimation of the hp loss between a std Bimmer Bike & fitting to a mini??? really??? I reckon it`s way toooo much to take off & that`s why i allowed so much to make it ,,, & i quote --> "sound worse that what it really is"

wake up people !!!!

some people have suggested (in the past) that it takes roughly 50hp to drive a ford 9inch diff,,, now i`m not sure if any of you lot have ever heard that before but really,,, what rubbish!!!!,,, that would mean the old beetle wouldn`t have been able to turn it right??? This is where i come back & say that it`s not all about peak hp,,, its more about the Torque "ALL" the way through the rev range,,, not just at the top.

It`s basically a small valve KAD head ,,, & very much the same as a Jack Knight head,,, crickey, has anyone diss-trusted those companys???

& yet here some of you are sceptical of BMW factory engineers.... yeah that`s right,,, you may think you`re scptical about what """I`M""" saying or what Feralsprint-Jon is saying (among others) but in reality you`re all having a doubt about BMW & their engineering quality & credentials... true!!!!!!!! that is really what you are questioning here.

If you don`t want one then cool,,, no skin off my nose,,, I have plenty of them for myself

if you`re curious, then cool , so you aught to be... & i`m glad,,,

if you`re distrusting, then maybe you`d better go drive a 25hp beetle for a while

hee hee,,, sometimes i`m funny hey???

ok. i`m done i won`t type anymore here until i`ve fnished tuning this turbo injected twinky moke i have here,,, & also after i`ve dyno`d the small bore single carb & dizzy version i`m about to fit into one of my roady "S"s.

However,,, please let it be known NOW that these are both """ROAD""" donks with std cyl heads, std cams, std ports, std valves,,, Nothing has been done internally other than the mods to fit them... just have to say that right now so you don`t all jump down my throat later.... there is a big difference between my roady small bore running a std mini distributor & a single SU carb ....& that 970S twinky race donk on youtube ok??? Very Big dfifference indeed.

to all the other peole sitting back watching & reading this & not posting,,, sorry for the long posts, but hope it`s all entertaining enough for you all

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

that 970 would be most suited to a bimmer head because it has a tiny stroke and a longer rev range.

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Back to answer your question jbeenz.

My 1411cc engine makes 127hp and 113 ftlb on Russell Engineering engine dyno. Just for the naysayers, that is with the idler gear in and the actual gearbox fitted to the car, and normalised for the barometric pressure and temperature on the day. See the torque curve below, no bullsh*t here,





The head is a 12G940 tickled by Graham Russell. It has 36mm inlets and 29mm exhausts. The smallest part of the inlet port that Matt mentioned above is 36mm, which also happens to be the choke diameter of the 45DCOE Weber. Graham told me that he was trying some new ideas with this head, but they were to go with the RE282 cam, which unfortunately you cannot get anymore. Almost all of what Matt described has been done except for his little trough, and of course the exact details are different because it was Graham holding the die grinder and not Matt I can't even remember the chamber size now, but the compression ratio worked out to be 10.9:1 so it runs fine on 98RON.

Valve springs are the double springs that are sold as being "good to 8000rpm" whatever that means in terms of part number. Rockers are the standard pressed steel type with a weld along the top to make sure the pads stay put.

This motor makes fantastic torque which makes a dufus driver like me look good. Some guy timed me at 1:19 around Wakefield Park on 2nd hand A032Rs a week after the historics were doing 1:16s. Graham and Greig Malaure reckon a new set of tyres is worth 4 seconds a lap there, and I reckon a consistent driver in that car is worth a few more over me as well. So take from that what you will.

What you do with a head really depends on the cam, capacity and compression you will be running in the engine. Ultimately you want to maximise the gas velocity in the inlet and exhaust. Having a big valve, big port head and a big lumpy cam is absolutely useless on a standard compression engine, waste of time.

My favourite tool to use for doing this job was my wallet. I paid Graham to do it as he is the best, and a really nice guy to boot. You could do a lot worse than send a head to him or to Matt to get what you want.

cheers
michael

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the world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page
66 Mini Minor sponsored by http://www.lifeonthehedge.com.au/ The Dog Harness Specialists
It was a pleasure ausmini. I'll miss all you misfits and reprobates

[quote="spraycanmansam"]
Well ok, it's not quite 140hp and it's not quite an 1100 but for those that want numbers, heres a 970cc with a BMW Twinky conversion making 132hp on the engine dyno /quote]

You can't compare a 970 S engine to a 1098 ffs

Matt
Engine Dyno V Rolling road figures, using the dyno dynamics dyno with an engine that was dyno'd on GR's Dyno saw a drop of 25-30hp through the drive train...... then we can get into diff's and drop gears.. Sorry mate but rolling roads can be misleading and easily fudged.As has been said before they are only usefull for tuning across a rev range.

You talk about BMW engineers and how great they are blah blah, sure they are a clever bunch, they built a great head that works extremly well....on a BMW Bike motor, not a 50 year old design A-series motor. That has completly different bore and stroke and counterweight values. AND certainly different cams.(has any R& D gone into reprofiling them to suit the mini or are we running std cams used in the BMW bike with a different bore and stroke)

Very clever working out how to get it on the motor mate, but is it a better option than a std 5 port or even an 8 port arden or the like, i dunno.

Im not having a go at you matt or anyone that goes the BMW route, but i think people deserve both sides of the argument. I am a naysayer and can see faults with having to re-engineer a motor to fit something that doesn't just bolt on. Im no engineer but even i can see many many issues with the way this is done, and until the figures are shown on an engine dyno with a STD motor and lets see the flow figures.
Turbo's and the like don't count people..... this is being plugged as a high HP N/A motor in STD form.

Money wise, this isn't a part of my argument, if it works do it. People keep bringing it back to being a very expensive conversion. this shouldn;t be a part of the discussion, I am looking at performance alone. So don;t think i am rubbishing it because it costs money.

All i am asking is for someone, i don;t care who to put one on an engine dyno and a flow bench, then we can see some figures and can then get a true idea of what is what. Is it that much to ask to have real life figures rather than those quoted out of a brouchure? we all know what is in a brouchure is not reality....

PS. I know i am not the only one who questions the idea.

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Jeez,

I cant believe this is still going on this way. Dyno Vs Brochure figures, flow, etc etc.
Rolling roads are TUNING tools, unless you are in a shootout with controlled temps, pressures and humidity. Correction factors DONT work because there are too many variables. Its really really simple - Rolling road HP figures are useless unless you compare different motors in the SAME car on the SAME day under the SAME conditions... not even 2 cars really count.

The one and only thing that can tell you your torque (forget HP its a math calculation and useless really) is an engine dyno like GRs

I agree with Aaron, someone needs to get it onto Grahams Dyno. Matt, Grahams offer is still there for you.
Flow testing is also great but people dont say "My head flows X cfm, they say "I have X HP"

BUT!!!! There are 2 steps to this... not just power figures.
It needs to show how it drives too... which usually means a 1/4 mile drag... to show the performance.

Example, my mate owns a CRX - extremely worked - it made 560+ HP at the wheels, and that was spinning, they couldnt get a dyno figure because it kept spinning on the rollers. The reason is weight, they just couldnt get enough weight down.

Now, thats a really mean Honda Turbo motor under there, 560+ HP at the wheels, and runs a 9.6sec 1/4 mile... BUT its useless unless its on a dyno or a drag strip. NOTHING under 6000rpm and rev limit at 10,900rpm

The 240+ HP Mini A series turbo made MASSIVE power on a rollong road too but kept spinning. Same with some of the smallbore 1100 turbos

In fact, the Turbo's lost around 25% on the rollers as opposed to N/A cars which lost more... why? The way it loads up and measures.

So, long story short - it needs to get on an Engine dyno - then there is no more 'debate/questioning/arguing/challenging, la la la la la...

I have 3 questions:
1. Does anyone have a COMPLETED A-Series Twinky conversion - motor only?
2. Is anyone willing to give it to Graham to Dyno on the engine dyno?
3. Do people want to know the HP/Torque figures of these things - because if not - then everyone needs to stop talking about them.

On a final note, my car made 190Kw at the wheels on a Dyno Dynamics setup, when we took all the straps off, it gained 10Kw at the wheels... so no point in them I say except for a tuning tool... or a shootout 'fun' comp.

Peter

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Click here for the Turbo Conversion Thread!

Last ausmini dyno day at MRC, Ben's turbo 1152 got 127HP and GR's 1401 stroker got around 86? I think.
Yet both these motors gave 140HP steady at the crank, a week or two before, on the same engine dyno.
As said by others, standard rolling road dynos are good for tuning, shootouts and pub points... not definitive HP measurement.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

ive been following this thread for a while now and am about to do some head mods. its a 202 head, i dont have the money to get larger valves. im wanting to speed up airflow and hopefully produce something good enough. i have a couple of heads to practice on. my question is where should i polish, cut etc? any techniques that i should know of?

thanks. any help is appreciated.

cheers leighton

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1975 Leyland Mini: 1060cc - resto/ ex-hsc project.

Do you own "How To Modify Your Mini" or better yet "Tuning The A-Series Engine"? Both books are by David Vizard.

They should give you some idea of what's involved, but of course there are many people here who obviously have a lot of experience in this department.

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1964 Morris 850, 1330 Supercharged - 81.8hp atws.
1975 Leyland Mini S 1100S powered - Nice and reliable.
1977 Leyland Mini LS - Project LS-T

Agreed, read both those books first. Twice.

But don't be afraid to have a go, every little bit helps and it is "free" horsepower for just a bit of your time.

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Too many cars, and too little time.

Leighton,

When you have read vizards books and had a go and think you have a head thats ported well. Give Graham Russell a call and pop around with it, wont cost you much to flow test it and you may be lucky enough to get some advice too.

Cheers,
Peter

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Click here for the Turbo Conversion Thread!