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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 9:23 am 
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Number86 wrote:
If I choose to use the glorified lap sash harness that is 1.5" wide that came with my car (1980's era cheap harness), that is fine in the eyes of our friends at CAMS, because it has no date. Crazy!!!


I'm sure everyone can see the stupidity in that rule.

The 'age' rule should reflect the level of licence required to compete in the event entered, just like the minimum requirement for the type of 'harness'.

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 4:50 am 
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the last CAMS magazine had the story about the change. I think (from sketchy memory) that if the event is a FIA calendar international event then the 5 year rule still applies, otherwise it is 10 years.

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 8:59 am 
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This one is out either way, 1993 haha.

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:03 am 
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hmm I have a pair of Harnes's "Cams Approved" but with out a date :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 12:31 pm 
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why not just buy new ones... they are cheap, they are a life saving device.. why worry about saving a tiny amount of money? 1993 build standards werent as crash hot as todays are.. i would never use them regardless of condition

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 6:14 pm 
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meeni wrote:
why not just buy new ones... they are cheap, they are a life saving device.. why worry about saving a tiny amount of money? 1993 build standards werent as crash hot as todays are.. i would never use them regardless of condition

In what way was the 1993 standard different to todays standard? 8)


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 6:54 pm 
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So an easy way out would be to fit lap sash belts and harnesses, and just wear both in motorsport events?


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 8:59 pm 
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Morris 1100 wrote:
meeni wrote:
why not just buy new ones... they are cheap, they are a life saving device.. why worry about saving a tiny amount of money? 1993 build standards werent as crash hot as todays are.. i would never use them regardless of condition

In what way was the 1993 standard different to todays standard? 8)


I was going to ask the same question. They are building them the same now as they did in 1993, except the labelling has changed.

Ever ask the question about who benefits the most financially from a standard that mandates a new harness every five years (two years in the case of SFI for drag racing) and then question whether those organisations sponsor the "studies" that result in such a standard being adopted?

The study sponsored by CAMS that resulted in this relaxation of mandatory harness changes was the first one in a very long time that dared to challenge the "science" that the FIA bases its rules on.

As far as I am concerned i would like CAMS to apply some knowledgeable judgement to all of the FIA rules they seem so eager to adopt. How many other national associations will challenge the FIA wisdom? Like Morris says, CAMS is our representative on the FIA, not the other way around.

cheers
michael

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:07 pm 
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Thank Dr Michael Henderson for firstly developing the six point harness into motorsport in the 60s and secondly for getting CAMS to relax the stupid five year rule.

Oh, and every time you see a CAMS approved label on any product CAMS is getting a kickback. The more CAMS approved belts and extinguishers that are sold CAMS is making more money.

Did you know that CAMS wants to bring in FIA driving suits for all speed events. (like supersprints) That battle is still being fought.

Any wonder that Supersprints are losing ground to Drive days.


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:09 pm 
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they arent identical... even the belts in the 944 which are 2005 spec arent as good as any of the new ones ive used in other cars. its a personal preference i guess, but i just think its silly using old stuff when new stuff is so cheap. id be happy to see fia suits in supersprints.. or would burning to death be the cheaper easier option? on an unrelated topic when are cams going to make hans devices compulsary? they should be already

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:28 pm 
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meeni wrote:
they arent identical... even the belts in the 944 which are 2005 spec arent as good as any of the new ones ive used in other cars. its a personal preference i guess, but i just think its silly using old stuff when new stuff is so cheap. id be happy to see fia suits in supersprints.. or would burning to death be the cheaper easier option? on an unrelated topic when are cams going to make hans devices compulsary? they should be already

The lowest standards for belts have not changed in 30 years. The higher standards have improved even though CAMS actually hindered the adoption of the 3" belt. :roll:

How many drivers have burned to death in Supersprints in Australia? None.
How many drivers have burned to death in Australian motor sport since the beginning? None that I can think of. I know of one that died from pneumonia after he released himself from hospital a few weeks after receiving very bad burns. I do know of one death at a supersprint it was not fire related.
The introduction of FIA suits at sprints would just kill sprints completely. (or is that CAMS goal?) Nobody would bother.

Why would you need a HANS device in most classes? The Hans device protects against neck injury from a very high G crash. The sort of G forced that you are never going to get in a Supersprint at Oran Park. Most club type cars do not go quick enough to hit a wall with enough Gs to cause those types of injury.

I used to work in race track medical teams. :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:45 pm 
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in my opinion it doesnt matter if it hasnt happened, its if there is the potential for it to happen that the law should be inforced i know its expensive for the club racer, i refuse to agree that hans devices are useless for these types of cars.. a guy in our class was in hospital for weeks with neck injuries after a shunt.. he didnt have one... no he isnt dead.. but he wasnt to good

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 10:59 pm 
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correct me if im wrong,
But doesnt a hans device only limit the distance your head can go forward and backward? so without one your neck would be thrown forward to your chest with inertia, causing damage to your neck. But the hans device would transfer the inertia through your shoulders and onto your harness. So the deceleration of the car would have to be pretty huge, as in massive impact to a wall, for it to work at its best.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 5:36 am 
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The extension of the validity of FIA racing harnesses, from five to 10 years, is an important achievement, and it is worth explaining some of the background behind it.

In 1998 the FIA introduced a new requirement (under FIA standard 8853)
for harnesses to be used in International competition, and for the first time incorporated a five-year validity period. In 2002 CAMS enforced this period for all competition in Australia.

However, there has never been a scientific basis for placing any specific limit on the effective life of a competition harness. After seat belts in road cars became fitted as standard and their use became compulsory over 35 years ago, similar questions were raised by road safety authorities. But crash investigations and other studies did not show any increased risk of seat belt failure with increasing vehicle age. Belt performance appears to be as satisfactory in cars aged 15 to 20 years as it was when new, and therefore no authorities have mandated regular belt replacement.

Generally, road car seat belts have a heavier and harder use than race harnesses, and any potentially hazardous wear or misuse is obvious to the eye of an official inspector. AIMSS therefore contracted Autoliv, a major FIA-approved crash and equipment test laboratory based in Melbourne, to examine and test a sample of race harnesses that were
‘out of date’; that is, beyond the five-year expiry date on the labels on the harnesses. It was found that most harnesses over 15 years old are unlikely now to be in full compliance with current FIA requirements. However, these harnesses were built in accordance with the pre-1998 requirements of their periods, which were less stringent. In addition, many in this group were of a rather ‘basic’ nature by modern standards, and some were so badly soiled that they would be rejected by any competent scrutineer.

On the other hand, all the harnesses aged 11 years and under still comfortably complied with the relevant strength requirements of FIA
8853/98. AIMSS therefore came to the opinion that there was no reason on cost-benefit grounds to require competitors to discard FIA standard
race harnesses after only five years.
The test data strongly indicated that their validity could be extended from five to 10 years with no measurable decline in safety.

In events run under FIA international rules, the FIA five-year validity will still stand. Through CAMS, AIMSS (as a research partner organisation of the FIA Institute) intends to discuss this matter with the FIA. AIMSS is also conscious that many local competitors are unhappy with the two-year mandatory replacement of webbing in harnesses to the American SFI specification. This issue will require a different test procedure to resolve, but AIMSS will do so if possible.


I found it very interesting that the five year rule was applied arbitrarily with no scientific or engineering basis. How much influence do you reckon the harness manufacturers had on that decision?

This is the first time that CAMS has challenged the FIA's safety integrity on a cost-benefit basis, and I am hoping it won't be the last.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:43 am 
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blue_deluxe wrote:
correct me if im wrong,
But doesnt a hans device only limit the distance your head can go forward and backward? so without one your neck would be thrown forward to your chest with inertia, causing damage to your neck. But the hans device would transfer the inertia through your shoulders and onto your harness. So the deceleration of the car would have to be pretty huge, as in massive impact to a wall, for it to work at its best.


thats right, but most cars (even the mighty supersprint ones) are capable of hitting walls at over 100 kmh which would slow you down pretty quickly and would hurt a fair bit id say

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