it's not just me mate. You need to read these damper articles and the many others on the Internet. They all say that the purpose of a damper is to address torsional vibration. Period. By injecting the issue of the uniquely-Mini clutch arrangement and it's movement into the discussion, you have merely introduced a red herring that is completely irrelevant to the discussion of crank dampers.

The subject of the Mini clutch movement has no place in a discussion of dampers. You have merely served to confuse the issue for those who are trying to understand why almost all car manufacturers install dampers on their engines, including the 99% which do not have the Mini clutch issue.

There's no math necessary to prove that dampers are installed to dampen crank torsional vibrations, not in any way to address clutch issues.

So beat the dead horse all you want, mate. I doubt that he will notice, much less care.

How do you dampen a vibration that is variable when you push the clutch in?
Nah, forget it. Do what you want, it is your car.

sorry mate... but David did say the right words & in the correct manner & for the right reasons in a very relevent post & particularly on topic

it really is a mini forum (not a """almost all car manufacturers install dampers on their engines, including the 99% which do not have the Mini clutch issue""" forum) , so the mini clutch design is quite relevent to the situation which David has suggested "can" be (& the point being--->quite often is) the cause of some crank & dampener failures.


my horse is still breathing

_________________
No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

Miniman,

as long as you're interested in pulling quotes from previous posts, why not consider this quote of yours: "as you also suggest that the "Imbalance" whilst disengaging the clutch is "Absolutely Minute" or "Trivial" (as you have put it),,, well it actually is a rather major factor,,"

It's absolutely untrue that the imbalance while disengaging the Mini clutch is a major factor. The major factor, and the only one worth mentioning in a discussion of crank dampers, is the torsional vibration that occurs in all cranks, not just Mini cranks. That virtually all crankshafts in the world run dampers, most without the Mini clutch issue, and dampers were used decades before the Mini even appeared, speaks volumes about why it is that dampers are used. They are used simply to dampen torsional vibration.
It's only a coincidence that Minis have clutch issues along with torsional vibration. The damper is used for torsional vibration damping, not to "fix" the clutch design's inconsequential impact on the crankshaft. I don't deny that the clutch issue has a VERY minor role in crankshaft trauma, but the clutch issue contributes hardly anything to crank trauma when compared with the torsional vibration that really kills Mini cranks.

mini7boy - just curios - I know and respect Matt's and David's background, knowledge and experience with Minis build up over a lifetime of living and breathing with these crazy little machines we all love. I'm just wondering what is your background and experience in this area?

_________________
David L


My greatest fear in life is that when I die my wife will sell my Mini and tools for the price I told her I paid for them!

Miniman,

where we disagree is on the role of the uniquely-Mini clutch operation in Mini crank failures and the rationale for installing a crank damper.

I believe that the Mini's clutch operation is insignificant when compared with torsional vibration as a cause of crank failures.

I believe that a damper is installed on cranks for the purpose of dampening torsional vibrations and virtually nothing else. Torsional vibration is such a destructive characteristic of virtually all cranks, that engines have had crank dampers ever since they first appeared on crankshafts many years before the Mini appeared.

Based upon what you have written, you attach much more importance to the role of the Mini's clutch operation in Mini crank failures than I do.

You also believe that crank dampers are installed on Mini cranks for some combination of addressing the clutch issue and torsional vibration damping.

I'm not going to take the bait, Wombat.

If I list on this forum all of my experience and background, it will just expose me to a lot of cheap shots from those who know relatively little about the subject under discussion and who blindly believe what they hear as long as somebody has worked with Minis for a long time.

Believe it or not, Minis are not the be all and end all in the automotive world. Many engineering principles apply to a lot of other cars, along with the Mini, so that one's education in these matters does not have to be learned solely from working with Minis. The subject of crank dampers is a good example. All cars have them and they have them for the same reasons.

It's also true that knowledge and skills are not necessarily commensurate with years of experience. Some people get the same year's worth of experience ten years in a row. As a result, someone else may have acquired more skill and knowledge in 5 years, for example.

Another example: does the man who has replaced 20 water pumps on a Mini necessarily have that much more RELEVANT knowledge and skills than another man who has replaced only 5 water pumps? Of course not. I mean....how many water pumps does one have to replace in order to be an "expert" on Mini water pumps?

In addition to hands-on experience, it's quite obvious that technical knowledge and skills are also acquired through study and exchanging ideas and experiences with other persons who are well-respected experts in an area of interest.

Bottom line: it's entirely possible that a person who has in-depth, but relatively brief, experience in a given area has more knowledge and skills because of the quality, not the quantity, of the experience.

I have owned 6 road Minis and did all of the mechanical work on them. I currently race a Mini, have raced other cars and karts and have never paid anyone, other than a machinist, to work on or build any of my Mini or other racing engines.

In addition to reading many of the relevant technical books, SAE papers and other engineering documents, I have always sought out experts in fields in which I had an interest and compared notes with them.

I'll just close by saying that I make no claims about being a Mini expert, but I know far more about some engineering aspects that apply to Minis than most of the general Mini community do.

Mini7boy,,, the first part of your post quoted above suggests that crank damage &-or dampener damage """wouldn`t""" be caused by anything to do with the clutch issue??? Not even a possibility????? understanding that the dampener (being attached to said crank) & """KNOWING""" the facts becuase you have read some articles on the net & maybe a book or 2 on the subject,,, well,,, I`m not arguing with the fact that engines are better off with dampeners mate,,,, obviously that goes without saying & i really can`t understand why you keep pushing that point,,, i`m pretty sure that everyone got the picture well before this topic came up, & any-who that hadn`t will surely know by now because of this topic Man ive seen & had to repair more broken old std issue tin type mini (non-dampened) front pulleys """&""" dampener type pulleys & the related crank dramas resultant from those than most have had breakfasts.

It`s interesting to note & would like your opinion on this --> would you say that you could believe in the "possibility" of """ANYTHING""" attached to the crank """Could""" also be damaged ---> including the dampener???

Lets just imagin that there is a BMW M series that races in Improved production series here in Aust & that the engine keeps having harmonic balancer failures ok,,, just for arguments sake,,, lets also just imagin that the owner & his engine builders continue to replace the dampeners & all the while continue to try to locate the source of the problem yeah? Understandable right?,,, well i`ll now suggest to you that his beautiful tilton race clutch was the cause.... Man this is just the point that David was making,,, sorry but you really have missed the point here & if you did actually get it, then you`re just being argumentative or trying to make it sound like David & i have no knowlwge or experience with regards to engine dynamics,,, well,,, cool,,, for those who don`t know such information, this topic is very interesting & hopefully very informative,,, & it`s all been well worth while for those people,,, & hopefully quite entertaining too



Please understand that David was pointing out that what happens at one end of the crank can be (& quite often is) seen with the results at the other end, yet may well be mistakenly blamed for the cause in the first place.

------------------------------------------------------------------

&,,, (with that part out of the way),,, your next statement ( 2nd quote above) suggests that you don`t believe that the clutch assy would move (& i will call it --->"out-of-sync" ) ... Now I understand your persistance in talking torsional vibrations & the dampeners "JOB",,, (obviously that is the topic yes good for you) however,,, i`m trying to show some understanding that it`s not "All" about torsional vibrations causing crank "Assy" (&/or) associated parts damage (dampener being one of those parts) & am just interested to hear your thoughts , Mainly because this forum is a mini forum & we do "All" have this agricultural clutch assy design ,,, oh that is of course unless you have the later verto type clutch assy which the factory obviously changed for """SOME""" reason or another

I`m definately not saying that minis don`t need dampeners,,, Maybe you don`t know me mini7boy, but (Like i`ve said above) --->i`ve probably seen more plain tin pulleys let go & dampeners let go than you`ve had breakfasts,,, i`m also definately not saying that the clutch is the cause to """All""" dampener problems,,, nor was David.

But the topic is----> """"""""Does anyone know of Romac damper failures?""""""""""

& i believe that David was simply putting up just one of the many reasons why any dampener """could""" be (& quite often is) destroyed...

imbalances within any rotating mass cause fatigue failures,,,David suggested one of those reasons & it`s based on simple facts mate .... & sorry to blow your bubble but it`s not just related to mini clutches either.

_________________
No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

I'm into my second box of popcorn already

Mini7boy, like Wombat I'm genuinely interested to know your background, you obviously have quite some experience and Ausmini is always a better place for the presence of such people.

_________________
Simon

The adventures of an owner builder in the Tallarook Ranges

oh & mini7boy,,, i have no argument with """the rationale for installing a crank damper"""

& i`m not arguing anything to do with crank failures (altho it often become part of the result)

I don`t believe anyone has argued those parts, except you

The topic was about harmonic balancer """"""""Failure"""",,, now it may seem trivial to you but that is the topic,,, the """Failure""" part of the thread title may have illuded you somewhat

so,,, David described """"One""" of the many reasons for a """Failure""",,,, You also have described (over & over) just another of those reasons

well done to you both i say, it`s all good information to the masses & i agree that there are some pretty ordinary or shoddy vibration dampeners out there

my point (if it wasn`t obvious ala Morris1100`s entertaining (as usual) sarcasm with the "Whoosh,,,," thing),,,, was simply to enlighten you on the "Reason" for Davids post about the clutch design simply being one of those reasons

I`ve also given you another example of a very similar result from a very similar cause on another brand/make of vehicle

your experience & knowlege would go a long way i`m sure... & i`m positive that other people reading this forum wouldn`t want you to leave because of a silly "miss-understanding" between the reasons for """having a balancer fitted""" (which it seems you have kept on about) & the """cause of balancer failures""" (one of which David typed about)

I had a similar experience with Keith Calver over on the miniMania forum when i first got onto the net (about 12 years ago),,, he miss-read someones question & answered some jibberish that had little or no relevence to the question, ,, well no one picked him up on it for a few pages worth of confusion,,, most were backing up Keith saying things like ":well if Keith says it`s true, then it would be" & "I believe Keith cause he`s been doing it longer" etc etc etc

well ,,, i typed onto it with ---> "keith, do you wear glasses mate? cause you typed absolute crap that has just made a shambles & confusion out of this whole topic" (or something along those lines)

welll,,,, i then got the biggest Matt-bashing ever,,, all these long term minimaia forum members asking if i even knew who Keith was & what he says goes & he`s the man & i have no right to tell him he`s wrong etc etc etc

so,,, Keith finally got back on & typed---> Oh yes Matt, i do wear glasses normally but obviously i didn`t have them on when i replied to that thread, thank you for picking me up on it etc etc etc & then continued with his "Correct" version of his answer to suit the "Correct" topic

& obviously i was ok with everyone after that (funny enough)

now we have just another example of a similar thing here,,, mini7boy is going on & on about the importance & the reasons for the """fittment""" of a "vibration dampener" & has correctly termed this item to boot,,, well done,,,all good,,, but David & i have kept on about one of the reasons for a balancer ""failure

It`s a miss-understanding & a good one,,, i have no drama with people more or less intellegent than i , i have no drama with people typing rubbish onto forums,,, as long as its picked up & corrected

I don`t know you mini7boy,,,maybe i do,,, maybe i don`t,,, it`s not the point,,, the point is that this argument/disscussion has been miss-interpreted ---> no one has argued the "Reason" for "Fitting" a balancer with you mini7boy.

I`m sorry but i just assumed that Morris1100s "Whoosh" post may have shown you the way,,, sorry,,,it`s obviously wrong of me to assume.

peace mate & hope you can see now where i`m comming from,,,

(probably the back of the pack but catching up to the front pretty quick)

_________________
No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

I think you are wrong Matt.

Miniman,

as you must know, email has its limitations and is often inadequate for communicating information beyond a certain level of complexity. It's also true that after an email conversation goes beyond a smallish number of back and forths, the discussion loses its precision and both parties find it harder to manage and address all of the points under disagreement. Add to this inadequacy the differences in meaning and language as well as difficulty in accurately expressing the emotion/tone behind the words.

I think that all of the signs point to this email conversation having gone well beyond the point of being a productive exchange of opinions. Speaking only for myself, I don't think there's any point in continuing this exchange. Thanks to you and Mr. Rosenthal for your efforts.

but i`m wearing my glasses mate

_________________
No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

They must be the wrong glasses then.

i didn`t say where i was wearing them

_________________
No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.