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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:27 pm 
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Location: Geelong, Victoria
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Imagine running a business like that today


Like Mitsubishi Australia...
or General Motors in the US...
or Ford in the US...


hmmmmmmm.......


Must be an industry thing.

Watto :shock:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:33 pm 
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Location: Port Stephens, a little north of Newcastle, Australia
Wasn't it Allan Bond that said "if you know how much you got your not wealthy"...or something like that....Well we know where he ended up....
although the bast**d seems to have got back somehow.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:18 pm 
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watto wrote:
Quote:
Imagine running a business like that today


Like Mitsubishi Australia...
or General Motors in the US...
or Ford in the US...


hmmmmmmm.......


Must be an industry thing.

Watto :shock:




And Holden in Oz.....



But hey, the precidence has now been set, you can relax Watto, in the comfort of knowing that when your business starts to go belly up (heven forbid) that the Govenment will step in with a rescue. I know they will! :wink:

because, as you put it, you could be considered as part of the industry...(or furniture....something like that!!!!)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:32 pm 
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Given that I don't employ anybody and that my annual turnover is a little less than the billions of GMH, I think I could only expect about $12.50 in relief handouts.

So, I guess I'll just continue to struggle on alone. :wink:

Watto. :shock:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:28 am 
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I know that we are really getting off topic here, but it's no wonder BL went belly up. Poor management we all know about but has anyone sat down and really looked at all the production part changes??

Given that there were few model changes and introductions, especially when the time in production and number produced is considered, there were (at least on the Aust Models) and unbeleivable number of part changes. Some of these, granted, were because of legislation, but only some.

The true cost of these changes is HUGE:-

1. a 'need' to change is filtered in to the system (somehow)
2. A Committee is usually formed to discuss and thrash out if it is really needed and what direction it should take or this maybe bourne out in R & D, so there could be several prototypes authorised. This process (Committee) can take from a few hours to years.
3. R & D carry out Prototyping and Testing. This can cost BIG $$ - real big $$. And again can take days to years to fully sort. This is where we sometime see an 'interim' part introduced. More $$ and these are also big $$.
4. Back to the Committee. More Days / Weeks awaiting their (in)dicission.
5. Maybe back to R & D to refine. More $$.
6. Costing to 'Tool Up' and put in to production (I've never heard them talking about production cost only tooling cost - one would think they're both of consideration). This in itself can cost a tidy sum.
7. Approval to spend the $$ by some pencil pusher who usually doesn't even know what the product is that they make.
8. Implementation. This is where the REAL BIG $$$$$$$$$ are spent. I can't drop names, but I can recall one car manufacturer (in Oz) having to spend ~$20 Millions (back in 1989) on modifing the production line just to change the sway bar set up on an existing model. No other changes to the model carried out!
9. On top of 8. above (and usually not factored in - dunno why not) is the interuption to existing production. This does cost because the factory floor managers understand what it takes to get say 60 cars a day out the door, so they bring on afternoon shift - at penalty rates - and talk to stores - to make sure stock is available - sometimes this means air freight. And then when they get the stuff, they have no stores at the factory (because it is 'just in time' (I say 'Just to late'!)) so they have to pay $$ for off site storage.

I could go on.

So having had an intimate look at Mini's and Moke's and all the stupid little (and some big) changes made over the years for, in most cases, no reason at all, it's no wonder they went bust.

What is that i should say here....end rant or some crap....

But, back on topic...

Clubman GTs (Oz Model) is one of the greatest and under-rated and little known about cars - ever made. Next to a Gal. Bodied Moke of course....(more new parts....)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:38 pm 
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An interesting, if somewhat misinformed, simplistic and irrelevant rant. :roll:

I don't think you are particularly talking about BMC or Leyland in Australia.

Apart from the Morris 1500, Marina and Tasman/Kimberley debacle, and the under-funding of the P76 project and an inappropriate method of finance for same (forced on them by the parent company in the UK) from what I have found out in my researching, including taliking to many people in middle-management and from the factory floor, the company was actually not that badly run- in Australia.

Many of the problems faced by BMC/Leyland Australia were forced on them by management in the UK or outside influences completely beyond their control.

In the hey-day of the 1960s, while the Mini and Morris 1100 were the company's two top-selling models, BMC was a substantial profit-maker and reasonably important player in the industry in Australia - certainly ahead of Chrysler at the time.

Up to 1969, when ADRs were first introduced, all changes made on any of the vehicles were to improve the product, for servicability, marketability, reliability or safety, or to reduce costs. BMC was the first Australian motor company to build vehicles with front seatbelts as standard, in the Morris 1100 of 1964.

Many changes were made from the UK spec of all Australian built vehicles, to improve the product and/or reduce the cost. Take the vans for example - featured in the next issue of TME - which used the sedan front end (the UK vans were completely re-tooled and had integral front grilles) and floorpan, which reduced costs in production.

BMC Australia was also fairly small in the committee department - partly because of a smaller overall staff in design and development - which meant decisions were usually made without too much fuss, and therefore less time, and in turn less cost.

BMC/Leyland in the UK was another case altogether, and although poor management decisions, an over-importance of personal ego and an inability to accept that anything could be built better than the British way of doing things were all partially responsible for bringing BMC and later BL to its knees, there were other factors beyond the company's control.

Escalating union strife, particularly with the mining and automotive industries, made manufacturing costs increase exponentially.

Despite management and union problems within the factory and suppliers; despite the abundance of brands within the one company fighting for market share with each other; despite a slowness of development and meeting the growing market threat from US, European and particularly Japanese car makers; BMC and Leyland managed to put out some very good, interesting and up-to-the minute car models (and some real duds!).

Yet, it was the coal miners' strikes of the early 1970s that brought industry to its knees throughout the UK, resulting in record unemployment, manufacturing shortfall and almost caused the collapse of the British economy. This impact cannot really be understated. It brought down the government of the day, and sent BL over 750,000,000 pounds into the red.

Issue 16 of The Mini Experience is recommended reading.

At this time, Leyland Australia was running at a loss, primarily due to poor market performance of the 1500, Marina and Tasman/Kimberley, and production problems with the P76 which lead to expensive recitfication, a drop in public confidence in the company and falling sales across the board (especially with P76). However, by late 1973 the company had traded its way out of much of these problems and was beginning to show signs of productivity.

To compound the problems faced by the company at the time, there was a new fuel crisis in 1973 (due to yet another middle-eastern war), talk of punitive taxes on V8 cars - the mainstay of P76 production was V8 - a misinformed and misguided government publicly denouncing the P76 as a lemon or dud, a public campaign by Leyland's (understandably) scared competitors to discredit the P76, and a covert operation from the same competitors to bring pressure on component suppliers. Increased inflation, rising unemployment and a credit squeeze that almost emptied car yards across the country also played a role. There was also a dramatic increase in the number of strikes in the motor industry (while Leyland Australia was not immune they certainly suffered fewer strikes than many companies) which almost crippled component manufacturers.

Despite all this, it was the near collapse of the parent company in the UK, and the need for them to quickly inject some much-needed capital, that brought about the closure of the Zetland plant - as well as plants in Spain, Italy and others.

Yes, there were probably some changes in production that may cause a raised eyebrow or two, but I think that the vast majority of cases would and could be justified - if not on cost alone, then on safety, marketing or after-sales costs. However, these were merely a drop in the ocean of the greater picture.

Cheers,
Watto. :shock:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:07 am 
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Craig, we probably should start another thread.....

I read with great interest what you have written and I don't question that you are well informed as to what went on at BMC / Leyland in Oz and the UK.

I have read in recent times (mostly in TME - Do you subscibe? :lol: :lol: ) a lot about the Factory itself and it's workers (I have an interest in manufacturing plants and have been intimately involved with many different plants and products - not only automotive - for over 25 years now) and I have no hesitation in saying that BMC at Zetland was cutting edge in Australian Manufacturing, not only from what they did and how they did it but also a recognition of the worker's and their extreme value to the product.

Regarding the production changes that I was 'ranting' about I can think of a few examples;-

The holes for the Door Switches - earlier cars are about 2" higher than later ones - small change but big $$.

The Tacho in the Clubmans - early ones were wired in series with the coil and later ones had a pick up from the points - BIG $$$ to change over to the later one and more $$ to produce. All Tachos were made by Smiths and so from a consumers and mechanics point of view it was back-ward because it meant maore spares to be kept and a sightly longer time to diagnose because time is spent establishing which system was fitted. Neither was Great and from the drivers perspective they both bounce all over the place just as bad as each other.

The Clubmans up to about 76 had a cover plate in the engine bay over the hole for the Rotodip Rotisery. I have seen no less than 3 different shaped pressings for these. HUGE $$$ really Huge for the pressing dies. From what I've seen the shape had little to do with the Air Filter fitted.

The Moke Bodies and Fittings from Pre-Gal to the Gal Models. Why not leave it the same (for the most part anyhow) only Galvanise it? The number of changes between these 2 models would be over 50 and again it was (mostly) to no advantage - look at the windscreen frame and the body pressings around this area. Sorry but I think the UK would have had zero input in to these (except approving the $$). The cost would have been a Kings Ransom and considering the production life of this model, I really don't think the got their $$ back.

Just are just some quick ones that I can think of and I'd be happy to hear of a logical explaination for them. I have seen maybe even a 100 'stupid' changes like these.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:50 am 
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I spent 5 years in a factory where we produced and used these kinds of dies on a day to day basis.

They wear out really often as it happens and need to be repaired or replaced. On larger dies they have insertable pieces such that the portion which wears quite regularly can be removed and replaced with another within a couple of hours, but for the smaller dies they would have backups on backups or simply have the pattern shop create a new one.

What I am saying is that the cost of remaking these dies can often be rolled into the normal maintenance cycle of the die itself, especially for smaller parts of the project. Same goes for core pattern for castings. The pressing of these patterns into sand wears them out over time, even when made of sturdier pattern materials like graphite.

This doesn't account for the engineering and design cost for the the modifications, but it reduces the cost all the same.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:22 pm 
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Thanks Mick. There are different grades of Dies and for cast parts timber moulding patterns coated with a special (hard) paint is always used. I do work for many companies that press sheet and also a number of foundrys.

Sometimes soft dies are used for pressing sheet, but this is seldom the case for cars, except when the make the first pre-production production models (if that makes any sence). They make as many as 100 cars using the production techniques that they intend to use in production to iron out the bugs. For these it is the norm to use soft dies and sometimes with replacable segments as you have described, however the dies used in production are quite hard and some of the more complex and larger ones can take a year to deliver from ordering, so they have to be hard to last some production time. It is common to get as much as 2 to 5 years from the types of dies used in the pressings for car panels (as used by manufacturers, not the after market stuff).

So you consider just manhours alone (in a year) to manufacture just one die. Serious $$. This is a major reason why most manufacturer's only do cosmetic panel changes at new models. Only some of the panels are changed but the major panels are not (like the floor, boot floor and firewall).

For many of the dies and their final shape, they cannot be produced on a machine, they are hand made by grinding etc. They can sometimes rough them out by machining, but they are all hand finished.

So just to move a hole really does cost $$ for the die and going back to one item that I listed, the light switch for the door, it also ment altering the wiring loom, not a big deal at all in itself, but a little bit more wire in each one and because it was lower it could no longer be threaded through on its own, so a tool was needed to install it (in the time alocated for production) and just the mear act of using a tool make the process slower and more costly.

'Stupid' changes.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:51 pm 
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Imagine the fun you can have these days with cheaply accessible computer driven machining...

It reminds me of this little pearl:
http://www.clearspring.com/widgets/47f1 ... a5901bf8de

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:47 pm 
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Mick wrote:
Imagine the fun you can have these days with cheaply accessible computer driven machining...

It reminds me of this little pearl:
http://www.clearspring.com/widgets/47f1 ... a5901bf8de


They used to call them 'rapid prototyper'. Be handy eh?


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