I agree with you, but many racers seem to think it's a `must have', which is why I mentioned it.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.....

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

right again, doc. Would those racers you mention be the same racers who run shocks(pardon me, dampers) that employ soft rubber mounts at both ends?

No 1st hand knowledge, but as these cars are racing in Nb and Nc historic I suspect yes, the shocks (as we call em) do have rubber bushes.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

doc,

do you mean to tell me that they don't allow shocks with rose/Heim joints at both ends?

There are guys on here who own/race Nb and Nc Minis, I'll defer to them.
I believe trick bits like this are not allowed in these historic classes, but I could be wrong.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

putting a rear anti-roll bar on to adress understeer is only adressing the symptom of the problem and not the cause. Like you say, if the rest of the suspension is set up properly and driven well, then there is not a need to have one. I don't have one....

When setting up my car, Greig did tell me that you need to know which tyre you want to use before you set up the front end. Hoosiers like next to zero camber. Lots of negative camber kills them. The A032Rs on the other hand work best with up to 2.5deg neg camber. Short story is that you really do need to set up the front end to suit the tyres.

I use the A032Rs and they are excellent in both wet and dry. I first used a set of Greig's used race tyres. They had plenty of tread, but had done their maximum number of heat cycles. Greig and Graham Russell told me that a new set of tyres are worth up to 4 seconds a lap at Wakefield Park. I now have a new set that I can tell how much more grip there is in the new set. I am only running about 1.5deg neg because it is set up for slaloms, motorkhanas, sprints as well as circuits (I can only afford one car so it is a compromise).

The Dunlop CR65s that they are using here in the Netherlands for historics use about 1.5deg neg camber. They use the fling it in to the corner sideways method on those tyres.

You have to remember that one of the reasons for flinging it in to a corner a bit fast is that with really grippy tyres you can brake so much harder. This causes extreme heat build up in the brakes, which then fade. If you are not braking so hard but flinging it in sideways to scrub off some speed, then you can perhaps avoid the boiling of the brake fluid. Of course you need tyres that can stand up to all this sliding and the crossplys with zero camber are better for it than the radials.

_________________
the world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page
66 Mini Minor sponsored by http://www.lifeonthehedge.com.au/ The Dog Harness Specialists
It was a pleasure ausmini. I'll miss all you misfits and reprobates

mickmini,

are you referring to the Hoosier 10 inch TD treaded tires? Those are about all that is run in dry weather in the U.S. A032Rs are just used as wet tires.

Answering a couple of Q's in previous posts...
Regs from Historic Touring Cars - don't know about other types of events (hill climbs etc)


Yes - as per the "period" they are supposedly a road registerable class - so all tyres that are on the approval list are treaded. Though the Hoosiers don't stay that way long even though regs are:
http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/08_historic/HI10_Approved_Tyre_List_Q409.pdf



Shock Absorber Mounting:
http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/08_historic/HI06_3.4_Historic_Touring_Cars_Q409.pdf



So there are some restrictions... and freedoms... some mounting points can be moved.
Adjustable lower controls arms weren't permitted - but there's been talk of it this year (but I've not seen anything official from CAMs) (and also rumour of allowing 4 synchro gearboxes)
Likewise rear adjustables aren't allowed but many have them.

Yep, Hoosier TD 165/70 10 inch. The Group Nb racers seem to be split fairly evenly into those using Hoosiers and A032Rs. But like I said, if you are set up for Hoosiers then it is less than ideal for the A032R and vice versa.

In Australia the Nb and Nc historic guys are allowed to use adjustable lower control arms and tie rods, so can get the maximum out of the A032Rs. If you have to stick to standard control arms and tie rods, then you are limited to the 1.5deg neg lower arms (which won't actually give you 1.5deg all the time), so the best performance will not be acheived from the A032R. Don't know what you guys in the USA are allowed to use, but if you can't get the full camber adjustment, it might explain why everyone is using the Hoosiers.

cheers
michael

_________________
the world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page
66 Mini Minor sponsored by http://www.lifeonthehedge.com.au/ The Dog Harness Specialists
It was a pleasure ausmini. I'll miss all you misfits and reprobates

yuck!
and the adjustable ones weigh heaps.
ya gotta make your own up

mickmini,

vintage Mini racers in the U.S. are allowed adjustable lower arms and adjustable tie rods. For reasons I'll never understand, a surprising number of Mini racers opted to use the type of adjustable lower arms which require that the arm be disconnected from one end in order to make adjustments.

These arms make adjustment more tedious and time consuming than the lower arms that allow en situ adjustment. The same goes for tie rods which allow en situ adjustment.

Just to complete the saga, rear camber/toe adjustment brackets are also allowed and used.

A couple of points about vintage/historics racing in the U.S. The rules vary depending upon which organization's races one runs. Some organizations are much stricter about specifying rules and the enforcement of those rules. Other organizations are much less strict.

As far as the Hoosier vs. Yoko A032R deal goes, I think that a few people have tried the Yokos in the dry and found them inferior to the Hoosiers and, based upon that, the rest of the folks decided to stick with the Hoosiers. As I understand it, the A032R Yokos are relatively new whereas the Hoosiers have been around for many years. Given the expense of a set of 4 tires, probably about $600, the decision to experiment with a set of Yokos is too expensive an experiment for most people to take on in case it is a mistake.

Depending upon which part of the country one races in, the likelihood of a wet race meeting is somewhere between near nil and 30-50%. Those who need to prepare for racing in the rain sometimes use the Yokos for wet track sessions. They seem quite good for that.

Super-mini,

there's no reason why a properly done set of adjustable lower arms should weigh enough more than fixed length arms to be concerned about. Any extra weight added to make the arms adjustable is usually added near the inboard pickup point so the effect on unsprung weight is negligible. I have seen one set of gold-colored adjustable arms, in particular, that look to be quite heavy, but these are nothing I would buy. Other than that, most sets of store bought adjustable arms I have seen are made well enough that their weight should not be an issue. However, I have seen some rather crudely made homemade units that wouldn't even make good weapons.

Huh, funny how every Nb car I have ever looked under has had them. I suppose if they are going to allow fuel injected V8 mustangs and falcon sprints then letting the Minis have some freedoms at the rear of the field is not going to cause too many protests

_________________
the world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page
66 Mini Minor sponsored by http://www.lifeonthehedge.com.au/ The Dog Harness Specialists
It was a pleasure ausmini. I'll miss all you misfits and reprobates

mickmini,

have you experimented with using rear toe-out as a substitute for a rear swaybar for reducing understeer? It's something I plan to try. I have spoken with several quick drivers who have used rear toe-out to good effect.
It turns out not to be as deadly as some would have us believe. Like most things, one needs to start off slowly and work up gradually until understeer is reduced sufficiently or the car swaps ends whilst braking.

How much of a problem with FRONT tire lockup do you have running the Hoosiers along with the standard Cooper 'S' 7.5 inch caliper and rotor? Are you allowed to run adjustable pressure limiting valves to prevent rear wheel lockup? I have found the Hoosiers difficult to lock up on the front using the Cooper 'S' front brakes. Virtually nobody runs servos in the U.S.

Sorry mate, I have never run the Hoosiers. Only passing on what I was advised when setting my car up and discissions with some competitors here in Europe. I have only run the A032Rs.

I have 0.5deg toe out on the rear and it seems fine for me at the moment. I have more of a problem with too much rear bias at the moment, I need to put a softer spring in the adjuster so it closes off earlier.

_________________
the world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page
66 Mini Minor sponsored by http://www.lifeonthehedge.com.au/ The Dog Harness Specialists
It was a pleasure ausmini. I'll miss all you misfits and reprobates

a couple of points:

1) The Hoosiers under discussion are not slick tires. See the link listed below for a picture of their tread pattern.

2) I don't know what it proves about "slick" tires, but Malaure's experience proves that if you're after lap records, it helps to have a killer engine.

Questions:
Are Hoosier treaded tires allowed to be used in Malaure's class,
like those shown in the picture at the link provided below?

Which brand of slicks are allowed to be used in Malaure's class?

link: https://www.hoosiertire.com/rrtire.htm
click on "specs" and scroll to "Vintage & Historics"
click on the "H" next to the entry for 10 inch tires

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"it's always better to be uninformed than ill-informed"