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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:58 am 
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Nick that`s where straight cut gear-box, straight cut drop gears & straight cut f/d gears come into play

not only can you change the ratios to make them closer together to suit a lumpy-er cam but also the "straight-cut" part of it all makes for less horse power loss, as there is very little side loads onto the thrusts of all the gears in the process

there are many other things/tricks that can help "loose less" throughout the drive train but mostly all this stuff is for full race applications & as LS1380 has just mentioned--> you can have a "Pig" of a race car on the street if you really want, but it won`t be long before you`re sick of it in the city traffic

That`s why I prefer much bigger capacity engines with much milder cam shafts to creat a lovely torquey smooth & quiet drive-able civilised road car , but at the same time they have heaps of grunt that will (& usually does) beat most of the hotted up race mini engines that seem to be plaguing the streets these days

like i said earlier,,, it`s not so much the Hp we want to see,,, it`s more about the amount of torque & the continued delivery of that torque right the way through the rev range

a big motha train/locomotive may have 500 million Hp & big bags of torque that is well beyond the comprehension of many people,,, but they also weigh 500 million tonnes,,, they`re designed to pull big motha carrages & plenty of them,,, ok so lets have all that grunt but shove it into a mini & then gear it right to suit yeah???

on the other hand -->we could have a Yamaha R6 engine with heaps of revs, not much torque but it screams really fast yeah & has about 130hp,.,, well try to make that engine pull all those train carriages yeah??? Sorry,,, it aint going to happen is it?

it is also going to struggle (Big Time) pulling the weight of a mini ,,, getting it yet???

but it`s got 130hp right???

No real "Grunt" tho

we want "Grunt",,, that`s what we want,,, & if we can make it rev safely & strongly & consistanl;y too (if & when we want it to rev hard) then all the better & then the HP figure will reflect all that grunt with the revs to produce a smooth (not lumpy) easy to drive (Not jerky n jolty) quiet (not loud) fairly economical (not fuely) civilised road mini

Bigger capacity road engines , (Big bores with longer stroke cranks) can be all that & still rev if you want them too & yet have more pull than a bunch of schools boys.

The South Africans actually fitted very large -fat- heavy flywheels into their 1100cc engines to help gain some torque,,, they`re very short stroke engines & like to rev, but have no real pulling power so they fitted the heavy flywheel to maintain some guts for the hills

Think of a pottery wheel people,,, once you get it spinning it doesn`t want to stop in a hurry does it???

the flywheel is what holds the energy,,, lightweight flywheels are great for accelleration but you effectively loose some hill-climbing torque in the process

But if your "Road" engine is already a massive torque monster, then you can afford to drop some flywheel weight & make it accellerate even quicker & can even run taller diff ratios ,,,-->where most race minis use Zippy diff ratios to accellerate & suit/Match the light flywheels & hi-rev peaky cams

it`s all a game of mix-n-match,,, but you have to know your stuff to get the match-up right

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:53 am 
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This thread raises a much over-looked point when talking about 'Horsepower'.

When I hear figures of say 100 HP or 80 ft/lb torque, sorry but that means very little to me, it is not much more than 'Pub Talk (torque?)'.

Matt has, in away, started to address this above.

For me, I like to see the torque vs rpm curve on a graph. Then it starts to mean something. For example (and I'll use the term HP), I don't think it is much of a practical street engine if it makes 100 HP at 7000 RPM but say only 60 HP at 6000 rpm and then only 20 HP at 3000 RPM. Poor engine set up can easily do this.

As another example, It would be far more enjoyable to drive if say it made peak power of only 80 HP at 5000 rpm and tapered back to 40 HP at 2000 rpm. But this would be from an engine that only makes 80 HP, it would in fact, in all practicallity be faster than the 100 HP engine.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:45 pm 
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GT mowog wrote:
This thread raises a much over-looked point when talking about 'Horsepower'.

When I hear figures of say 100 HP or 80 ft/lb torque, sorry but that means very little to me, it is not much more than 'Pub Talk (torque?)'.

Matt has, in away, started to address this above.

For me, I like to see the torque vs rpm curve on a graph. Then it starts to mean something. For example (and I'll use the term HP), I don't think it is much of a practical street engine if it makes 100 HP at 7000 RPM but say only 60 HP at 6000 rpm and then only 20 HP at 3000 RPM. Poor engine set up can easily do this.

As another example, It would be far more enjoyable to drive if say it made peak power of only 80 HP at 5000 rpm and tapered back to 40 HP at 2000 rpm. But this would be from an engine that only makes 80 HP, it would in fact, in all practicallity be faster than the 100 HP engine.

This one 1412 stroker) should pull OK I reckon- and still have good top end-
The HP dip at 6000 is the Maniflow LCB
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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:15 pm 
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drmini in aust wrote:
GT mowog wrote:
This thread raises a much over-looked point when talking about 'Horsepower'.

When I hear figures of say 100 HP or 80 ft/lb torque, sorry but that means very little to me, it is not much more than 'Pub Talk (torque?)'.

Matt has, in away, started to address this above.

For me, I like to see the torque vs rpm curve on a graph. Then it starts to mean something. For example (and I'll use the term HP), I don't think it is much of a practical street engine if it makes 100 HP at 7000 RPM but say only 60 HP at 6000 rpm and then only 20 HP at 3000 RPM. Poor engine set up can easily do this.

As another example, It would be far more enjoyable to drive if say it made peak power of only 80 HP at 5000 rpm and tapered back to 40 HP at 2000 rpm. But this would be from an engine that only makes 80 HP, it would in fact, in all practicallity be faster than the 100 HP engine.

This one 1412 stroker) should pull OK I reckon- and still have good top end-
The HP dip at 6000 is the Maniflow LCB


What we can see does look quite good in the 'spirited end', but what's it doing around the normal road rpms (below 4000 rpms)?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:41 pm 
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I'll let you know, when it gets into the car next month. If it's like GR's 1401 stroker (same cam and carby) it'll haul ass all the way up.:wink:

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:05 pm 
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998cc
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So Doc, what weight flywheel is on that?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:17 pm 
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bamnfi wrote:
So Doc, what weight flywheel is on that?

It has a sensibly lightened 2 piece Mini flywheel (but no holes drilled through it), a lightened Cooper S backplate, and an `orange dot' diaphragm.
Same setup as on my 1360 I'm driving now.
The big journal stroked crank has been wedged too, that saves a bit.

The dyno sheet above was produced from figures obtained on a Heenan & Froude ENGINE dyno (real BHP) not a rolling road.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:00 pm 
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theres so much more to it than just HP

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:50 pm 
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Hey guys,
As super-mini stated there is a lot more to it than just hp. I actually race my mini with 85hp at the wheels against a lot of guys claiming more hp at the wheels. I have managed to do a 1min 10.3 sec around wakefield park with an engine with standard s rods and large journal crank that is just balanced (no wedging or blading or backdrilling). Suspension is just mini with sports road shocks and rubber cone all round. Engine pulls from low rpm and car is not much lighter than street car. So it is possible to build a pretty good 100hp flywheel engine for the street without to many problems and without it being a pig to drive.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:53 pm 
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848cc
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forgot to mention engine is standard overbore 1310 with crank big ends ground down to accept the s rods. no big deal.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:55 pm 
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That 1412 I posted the dyno sheet for was built more with torque in mind than HP. If I wanted bigger HP (like my 1360 has) I would have put a bigger cam in it and done more head work.
With 113lb/ft and a 3.44 diff, with S gears it should get off the line good.
It'll be interesting to run it next ausmini dyno day (we are having one this winter guys, right?) :P

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:08 pm 
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"theres so much more to it than just HP "

Actually its the differential of the HP curve you are looking for.... basically performance is determined by the area under the curve.

"The South Africans actually fitted very large -fat- heavy flywheels into their 1100cc engines to help gain some torque,,, they`re very short stroke engines & like to rev, but have no real pulling power so they fitted the heavy flywheel to maintain some guts for the hills"

Obviously physics is not a big subject in SA ... or some other places....

Cheers, Ian


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:11 pm 
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1071 wrote:
"theres so much more to it than just HP "

Actually its the differential of the HP curve you are looking for.... basically performance is determined by the area under the curve.

"The South Africans actually fitted very large -fat- heavy flywheels into their 1100cc engines to help gain some torque,,, they`re very short stroke engines & like to rev, but have no real pulling power so they fitted the heavy flywheel to maintain some guts for the hills"

Obviously physics is not a big subject in SA ... or some other places....

Cheers, Ian


funny enough i believe the SA factory was quite smart in that they had produced a very VERY strong crank,,, kept the production costs down-ish by making their own tall pistons to suit the short stroke crank,,, & in doing so made for a pretty tough little donk that kept insurance costs down for registration of smaller capacity engine purposes ,,, in the process they made a fairly torquey road motor (with that big fat heavy flywheel) that was relatively cheap to produce using the already existing ( & plenifull at the time) 1275 blocks

& because of their "Enginuity" (typo pun) we can use one of the strongest factory produced A-series cranks ever made... (If anyone was interested in confidently reving the crap out of an A-series engine that is)

:-)

Quality Physics & Economy all sewn into one

It`s a FAR FAR Better 1100cc engine than the std wobbly old long stroke 1100cc "Thing",,, by a long way.

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:18 pm 
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Isnt the SA 1100 just a destroked 1275?
I know there was a rush a while ago on turbominis for everone to buy them.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:29 pm 
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I have pulled plently of Morris 1100 engines apart (1100cc) not 1275 that have had big kick ass heavy flywheels too.

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