Not sure how these things affect balancing or vice versa. If you change your power output through the addition of different ancillaries this does not necessitate balancing, I think you may have to explain this??

_________________
1970 Cooper S ex-Bathurst & ATCC
1964 Austin Cooper S ex-Group C race car
1967 Morris Cooper S ex-Group B
1962 Mini Speed sports sedan
1968-71 ex-Peter Manton Shell car

ok,,, for starters, i hav`nt even read the 2nd page of this yet but to let you know what i`m taking about Greg Cause you obviously have a bee in your bonnet about this & are not going to let it go (for what ever reason)

if you read back to the start, i said that i wouldn`t say "Not to bother balancing" an engine that "You" have know knowlege of or about... Please listen & understand what i mean when i say this Greg, (you obviously havn`t got it yet)

if someone building an engine , somewhere in Aust or overseas & somehow does miss-match stuff ,. or has a stuffed front pulley ,,, of swaps out for a flywheel that`s rooted/cracked/ been set-up & balanced out-of-whack ,,, or miss-matches con-rod-caps,,, or swaps out a con-rod for another one , even a "non-central" clutch pack fitted & & & & & many other reasons --> & then "you" tell them over an internet forum not to bother balancing the engine--> yeah???

sounds good hey? """That`s""" my point here Greg.

Now as much as i agree (& i have always said--> read back the millenia of pages of engine rebuild info i have typed here over the years & you will see that i have always said that the factory balance is pretty good)

But the fact is that "You" Or "I" have absolutely no idea of the truth/integrity/originality of any engine we chat about on-line

can you sit there & tell me that you "KNOW" for a fact that every engine we help people re-build on the net is still in perfect factory arrangement Greg???

Nothing is out of whack?... nothing has been changed??? & it`s still in perfect simitry?
Not even the front pulley has poor rubber that`s let go inside it,,, not even a clutch pack been set-up non-central???

How`s that for experience or credentials ???

can you really & truely argue with me about building an engine Greg??? Really???

3 years old stripping engines down on the kitchen table for my dad,,, building my first small-bore engine complete power unit at about 7 years old, started racing them at 8 years old & have been building & racing & repairing them ever since, built my first full race stroker power unit at 15..... I`m 50 now Greg

sorry but only 9 years???



Like i said earlier,---> it`s weired what we have found that comers back from the balancers sometimes.

I`ll now go back & read the last page



edit--> spelling

_________________
No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

Greg,,, that`s why i said--> I wouldn`t argue with you about backbones mate... well it`s obvious with 9 years study you should know what you`re talking about right???

9 years is a long time

But you know,,, as it happens,,, when i was growing up , """Living in the mini workshop""" eating sleeping working, playing, "everything" in the mini workshop,,, there happened to be (on average) about 10 mechanics at nearly all times (plus the sales staff & the secretarys & the delivery drivers etc),,, & i would watch & learn from all of their mistakes as well as my dads & as well as my own

so in a sense, i had the advantage over many mechanics in that i did my time & learnt from a huge resource of many many mini mechanics,,, not just my own stoopidity

Life in a mini workshop has taught me quite well

Oh & yep,,, funny enough--> i`m still living in a mini workshop building engines
there are usually approx 10 mini engines on the go here at any one time & i usually punch out about 5 or 6 engines each year (ontop of all the usual mini service & repair work),,, & yep,,, been doin this for myself for nearly 18 years now ...& for the 29 odd years before that i was mostly doin it for my dad at ReadSpeed as you well know.

there`s my credentials Greg,,, it`s called real life

& i`m sorry but i would still not recomend to anyone over the net , not to bother balancing an engine that i personally have never seen before & have absolutely no "honest" idea of it`s history... nor can i trust in who is going to be playing with (or has) played with it in the past.

i`m sorry,,, but--> like i said,,, you can diss-agree all you like,, that`s your prerogative mate.

_________________
No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

about 30 years ago I had an unmolested 1275 S rebuilt and got it balanced, the parts came back and had metal removed from most of them, including the new Mahle pistons. I think when they put engines together in the factory half a century ago near enough was good enough.

_________________
No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

oh & just to make it clear,,, i would always """suggest""" to fit a new front pulley/balancer these days too

& yes,,, "Obviously",,, i would then also have it balanced with the other guts of the engine.

_________________
No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

Look if you want to throw it all back together without checking conrod weights, straightness, balancing rotating mass of a crank which has been ground, crank and flywheel assembly (which also may have been modified) then go ahead. Simple things to check, why wouldn't you?

Do you also throw the crank in without checking endfloat? "she'll be right?"

Please explain why you wouldn't do what I describe above? To save what, 10 minutes? It's all these small fine details that make a good engine rebuild a superb engine rebuilt. Don't agree??

_________________
Lillee - 1969 Morris Mini K

This conversation has nothing to do with end-float and if you think it takes a few minutes to check and balance an engine you are obviously doing something wrong.

_________________
1970 Cooper S ex-Bathurst & ATCC
1964 Austin Cooper S ex-Group C race car
1967 Morris Cooper S ex-Group B
1962 Mini Speed sports sedan
1968-71 ex-Peter Manton Shell car

sorry Greg,,, definately not the same by any means --> you hav`nt been doing it all day everyday for a living.

_________________
No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

sorry again Greg,,, but i`m not talking about doing it specifically for performance ,but i can totaly understand why you would quote such a old guru on the subject,,, but it`s not about performance that i`m typing about here,,, maybe you still havn`t got my point yet

ok,,, so when did handsom Young David V write that??? Hmmmm (20 odd years ago) did he type that after the 30 year old harmonic balancer let go on the balancing machine? or after the clutch pack was found to be "Way" out of whack on the balancing machine? or was it 2 days after the engine was fitted by said young newby to building minis that was told by one of the best mini forums on the planet "Not" to balance his engine? & he found out then... after all that work was done & fitted & engine now running in the car with a horrible vibration? Now he has to pull it all out again,,, & rip it all apart , again

Greg,,, yet again i will say --> i won`t argue with you about backbones mate.

_________________
No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

Matt you were the one who provoked this. By insinuating I should stick to my own field of work and not challenge what you say. Clearly each engine should be taken on its own merit as I have stated repeatedly. I don't need to argue this, I think Vizard speaks clearly enough on the matter, and frankly his qualifications and experience trump both of us. Insulting Vizard and the relevance of his work is pretty poor form and a sign of desperation.


If you want to spend your customers money on balancing EVERY engine go ahead but don't try to discredit what others are saying because it goes against your NEW FOUND practices. Given the fact that the engine is a low mileage motor as stated and you haven't seen it either so perhaps neither of us are qualified to comment on whether it should be balanced, correct?

Let the kid make up his own mind shall we.

Agree to disagree then? Lets move on......Next topic

_________________
1970 Cooper S ex-Bathurst & ATCC
1964 Austin Cooper S ex-Group C race car
1967 Morris Cooper S ex-Group B
1962 Mini Speed sports sedan
1968-71 ex-Peter Manton Shell car

oops,,, sorry correction--> """"40""" odd year old harmonic balancer

& who assembled the clutch after the flywheel was skimmed?

what do you mean "centralise" the assembly???

oh & what was that i heard you say? --> no one told me to mark the con-rods & caps.

Greg,,, get it straight here--> My point is--> what is "suggested" to people on an internet forum by the people who are looked upon as "Knowing" what they`re talking about, really should "suggest" the right things to do when it comes to re-building a 40-odd year old engine of unkown history,,, it`s "Their" money & time,,, not yours mate

your & my time stuffing around in our sheds , on our own engines is all well & good,,, but suggesting to people on the net to just do what you do,,, but on engines you have absolutely no eye-ball on... is just nuts mate.

_________________
No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

Matt
I'm not going to keep arguing with you. I am happy with the engines I build and you are obviously happy with what you build. I need to go and do some work on my own mini and enjoy the rest of my holiday. If I get stuck I will give you a call

cheers G.

_________________
1970 Cooper S ex-Bathurst & ATCC
1964 Austin Cooper S ex-Group C race car
1967 Morris Cooper S ex-Group B
1962 Mini Speed sports sedan
1968-71 ex-Peter Manton Shell car

Greg i didn`t suggest to anyone not to challenge what i say... hence why i`ve explained why i`ve said what i`ve said.

however,,, what i was suggesting is that it can be quite painfull & expensive to the newby mini engine builder who is """Obviously""" asking for good advise & """These days""" harmonic balancers are falling apart,,, """These days""" flywheels/clutch packs are more frequently been stuffed with & out of whack,.,, & we have no knowlege of what rods he has or who has played with them.

these are serious internal items that need careful & quality time spent on them... no matter what the engine is.

However --> if you tell people over the net "Not" to do something just because an old mini guru said it """years""" ago , doesn`t mean it`s right """Now""",,, 30 years later.

_________________
No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

Greg,,, now "that`s" what i call poor form,,, "insulting Vizard" now did i???

sorry but did i say Vizard had 40 year old dampeners to play with??? is that all i said??? & now i`m obviously desperate & insulting???

you can try to paint this any way you like Greg... but i have in no way at all insulted him or his work.

It`s a totally different game than 30 years ago mate... that`s all i have "insinuated"

grow up &---> read what i have actually typed for crickeys sake mate.

i`m not upset because you have challenged what i have said---> seems to me all this is simply because you have your nose out of joint because i have contradicted what you have told the young fella...

But i`ve said this purely because i have seen the results of this exact situation many many times """more recently""" than in the distant past mate,,, that`s all.!!!

damn the old brake calipers are clicking now because the pads have worn big divits into them over the years & the pads flog backwards & forwards clicking as they smack the caliper

the old axles are clicking badly now with major slop in the splines & couplings,,,

the top arms are rooted now with major end-float from wear on their ends & thrusts over the years & they`re all flogging out badly now...

just a few """other""" things Vizard didn`t write about because they weren`t that old when he was writing his stuff.

you obviously still don`t get my point?????????????????????????

No?????????????????????

_________________
No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.