Mini legend Rocky Canto has bought a genuine group C Mk 2 Cooper S, its featured on the cover of the spotlight on the mini down under book, top left pic, Welsor no 57.

Rocky would love any period pictures or information on the car, if anybody has anything on this car can you PM me and I'll forward Rocky's email address.

Doogie

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I won Hay once, here's the pic to prove it..


Hay, it's not about the car, it's not about the venue, it's about the people that come here. Peter Dwyer, Mayor of Hay NSW.

I presume they've looked through "Autopics" and looking for any others....

Quick search on AutoPics and already found:

http://autopics.com.au/74735-g-leggatt-p-lander-morris-cooper-s-bathurst-1974/

Doogie - I floated this previously and didn't get much response. Sent PM to Greg Coates but no reply to date.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=86478

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ex-NSW Police 1970 MK II Cooper S
VMCI #43

Sorry mate I thought I did reply to that. I looked at the car a couple of years ago. Its definitely the welsor car but Rocky may have a little trouble proving to CAMS that it is what it is as the original log book is missing. I sent Andrew Bergan a pic of the car when it was owned by Smith and he was selling it, he also claimed at the time that it was the Leggatt Lander car and that was around 1985. If Rocky didn't get that pic tell him to give me a call and I'll pass it on. 0402214066. Leggatt lives near the Tweed so he is still around but not that keen to talk about the car. He will be Rocky's best bet for photos. I tried to find his number but have thrown it out. Check with Glen who was selling the car, he gave it to me so should be able to pass it onto Rocky.

Greg

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1970 Cooper S ex-Bathurst & ATCC
1964 Austin Cooper S ex-Group C race car
1967 Morris Cooper S ex-Group B
1962 Mini Speed sports sedan
1968-71 ex-Peter Manton Shell car

Thanks Greg. I've passed all that info on to Rocky. No doubt he'll give you a call.

Doug

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ex-NSW Police 1970 MK II Cooper S
VMCI #43

Hi Doug.
Rocky called me a little while ago about it and was going to send me some significant dates to look up for the car.
I have some info for him but its a mountainous job to trawl all the Race Car news and AA's for the period so key dates cut down the time.
I am currently doing some research for a few others (non mini) so will keep an eye out for it.

The Log Book would be a great keepsake but doesn't maketh the car!
If a log book disappears CAMS understands that the car doesn't then cease to exist. A car either is or isn't real on its own merits, research, timeline, line of ownership and provenace.
From what I have been told by knowledgeable people the car is the real Welsor car and sounds like this would concur with Gregs opinion?

Rocky has my email if he can track key dates. Ie crash or results.

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The formula for the length of a piece of string is simple: Twice as long as from one end to the centre!

Yeh Ben it is definitely the car but cams are getting very pedantic over their C of D especially for Group C cars, just ask AB how much trouble is involved. Basically you have to have a standard car. Anything other than standard you need to prove that those mods were there. Proving that this cream coloured 850 in front of you is in fact the red Cooper S that raced at Bathurst in 75 when you have no logbook, no ID numbers and no paper trail is getting a little difficult. The fact that Group C cars have to be the actual car and presented in the actual condition as it raced makes it a bit of a problem. In other words to run that car as a Group C car it will have to run as a hydro car (which it was converted to after it was reshelled from an S into an 850.) Which sucks as you have to prove to CAMS that what you present to them is exactly as it was raced in say 1975. And I mean Exactly. This means that if your car was a heavy stock car (like the mustard bathurst car I have) it would have to run like that which is totally uncompetitive. The loophole in the system is that if your car ran illegally back then i.e. with cheater stuff on it, then that is how it has to run. Anyone who knows the story behind by red Group C car will know that the car was illegally run with a number of mods under forged paperwork back in the day. Those mods are still on the car which unfairly makes the car lets say very competitive. But that is what CAMS is saying. It has to be exactly like that. In the end if you want to be fast in Group C you need a car that was a fast cheater in the day. There are a few out there and as Group C is becoming more popular these cars are being sought out even though they may not have been owned by great drivers. Another example of this is a friend is rebuilding the Cutchie Escort which was a definite cheater and is already causing massive problems as the car is set to run in the U2L class in group C. The current owner has photos of the car back in the 70's showing all the illegal mods as well as stat decs from the people who built the custom pieces. Another example of CAMS not thinking the regs through very well.

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1970 Cooper S ex-Bathurst & ATCC
1964 Austin Cooper S ex-Group C race car
1967 Morris Cooper S ex-Group B
1962 Mini Speed sports sedan
1968-71 ex-Peter Manton Shell car

that's great "the best cheat wins" was always the case, now it's enforceable!!

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did I tell you that I won a trophy?

Hey Coatsie

Many good points here.

Not quite sure on the " as it was so shall it be" theme.
I believe Paul Stubber is in the middle of a court case with CAMS
arguing that Moffat ran a six speed box in the RX7 car and now
with paperwork from Moffat he says he should be able to run it that way
rather than with a five speed...? Maybe why our licence fees keep going up..?

CAMS are standing firm on this i'm told.

Other Group C cars like Minis & Escorts, Gemini etc don't seem to have as
much of a profile & the volunteers who check these cars over are just that..
volunteers.

Rocky's car is logged with the re shell & an 1100 S motor too & has never been
registered as a road car.Will be OK I imagine.

The group C minis & their lap times are not even close to say the Group N minis
even though they run slicks.

Cheers
AB.
Time will tell.

Look out the CofD boys have started.
Hold on ill get the popcorn!
MB1275 where are you? get the bourbons!

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The formula for the length of a piece of string is simple: Twice as long as from one end to the centre!

As with every class AB, its all good until you start beating them. Then they are the first to try to challenge what you have is legit. You should know about that.

Its all good to stretch the rules but we all know what happens when you start putting in quick lap times, inevitably someone complains, and Grp C is such a political hot potato. Not what the class was originally intended for. Supposed to be gentleman racing but now that serious money is involved in some of these cars thats changing very quickly

As for the Grp C minis slower than the Grp N cars, I'm not sure if you are aware that they are basically stock S engines with a cam and raised comp, compared to the highly modified engines in Grp N minis, and with the modern Hoosiers there isn't much difference in lap times between a slick and a semi anyway.

I think you will find that car used the 1100s motor when it went to Smith. The way the CofD works is you need to pick a date to present the car in, and the build has to reflect the condition or mods of that particular period. The Goeghan mustang for instance was later logged as a Sports sedan but has reverted back to the condition and state of tune that it ran with Pete. The reason for this is there is an age multiplier for points in Group C depending on the date chosen to present the car in. As CAMS allowed more mods as time went on then the cars became faster, which is why you can't use those mods if they are after the date in which the car is presented.

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1970 Cooper S ex-Bathurst & ATCC
1964 Austin Cooper S ex-Group C race car
1967 Morris Cooper S ex-Group B
1962 Mini Speed sports sedan
1968-71 ex-Peter Manton Shell car

Guys just a quick note so the spectators can keep up.
Don't confuse group C with group N.
Both categories have CofD cars in them. Group C and groupA only allow cars with history.
Ross restored the Geoghan mustang to its 72 spec as it had all the good bits on it and was still owned and run by Big Pete. This places it's current historic eligibility in group Nc and it is not a group C car.
I believe It was a sports sedan for 73 onwards so would then fall outside eligibility for group C. Historic group c start point is 73

AB,s car has been log booked as a 64 cooper s and is therefore in NB and again not a group C car.
Coatesie you are correct in that both C&A want to retain originality and this is because it is a category more about the cars than the mods or outright speed. There have been recent freedoms so that people don't have to run a Sega or commodore 64 for an ecu. People just won't bring cars out if they are going to pop.
Also Cams didnt write the Group C rules , they were written by the founders of the Grop C association. Beech Thomas etc. and then adopted by CAMS. I believe "as it was , so it shall be" was Peter Brocks input when invited to help formulate a mantra for he category.

Anyways my popcorn is ready. It's light/salt reduced to get my race weight down for MCM.
I hear AB and Joe have been smashing themselves at the gym.

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The formula for the length of a piece of string is simple: Twice as long as from one end to the centre!

They may have meant to be close to standard in engine spec back in the 70's but as you know with your own car that wasn't the case.

As for the engine spec many of these cars are rebuilt to today & then developed that is also another thing .
Engine internals are not checked though engines are sealed I believe.

You can still build a serious engine within the rule book, as you know-most slicks are now radials with technology built in compared to something as archaic as a hoosier cross-ply street TD many of us run in Group N.

The inlet manifold was/is a restrictive element but I am told some of the larger capacity cars are running non genuine manifolds too.

Will be interesting to see your mini running in Group C Greg-after seeing the FIA paper work you should stir up a few competitors with some of the freedoms allowed within the car.

I hear Ben T has had his Foley look a like on a jenny Craig "special" ready for Muscle Car Masters. Would be good to see a mini as light as 500 odd KG's bennie...? Big mini entry from the central coast boys I expect...?

Mate the engine must be in pieces prior to sealing which is a pain in the butt as you need to have it re-sealed just to do a head gasket. Probably not a bad thing though, and very surprised it hasn't been brought into group N. May stop a few 5 speeds from getting on the track eh!

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1970 Cooper S ex-Bathurst & ATCC
1964 Austin Cooper S ex-Group C race car
1967 Morris Cooper S ex-Group B
1962 Mini Speed sports sedan
1968-71 ex-Peter Manton Shell car

Mate you accidentally hit the 5 button instead of the 6!
You're correct in I do need to put it on a diet to try to catch up to the CofD cars.....

It would be great to see a mini as light as 500 kegs but its too quick and always up the front!!
I did see it in the pits once from a distance.

Mate the coasties might be a bit light on as my car hasn't moved for 2 years and the MB resto has slowed. We will send out CBR to fly the flag tho!
I would like to try those new sticky Hoosiers!

Getting some good info here for Rocky..

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The formula for the length of a piece of string is simple: Twice as long as from one end to the centre!