that's just beautiful

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did I tell you that I won a trophy?

I had a SL Torana Hatchback, very rare in NZ and I built it up into a A9X race car that was still road legal, and crap I got from people for putting a V8 in it when the factory never made a V8 Torana (they did) and all the other tire kickers, but the one thing I learnt was not once did someone who had actually built a car for themselves ever criticize, I guess they knew and appreciated the effort it takes to build a car even if not to their tastes. So when someone has ago at me now I ask what have they built themseleves, and when they tell you they have a genuine shitbox repeat the question what have you BUILT, I guarantee none will have built a car at which point tell them to F%^)& off until they know what they are talking about.
My neighbour love Mustangs while I like Holdens, but we have nothing but respect for each others and our cars as we have both been there and done that many times building and driving our passion

I agree with you Cranky. I actually started getting a little pissed off reading your original post, hoping you told the fool to piss off. I was happy when you stated you did!

Like others have said, i believe your opinion is the only one thats really valid. You have earned that right having owned and looked after that car for 34 years. Without your love for it, the car could very well have been scrapped by some other unloving owner (including that fool who *now* values an original mini).



Like Fritz says the only thing i cringe at is when a good condition classic (like a cooper, an 'S' or a GT) is overly chopped up now.

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1963 850 - laid up
1970 Morris mini K van - eating up the kms!

This was very much the dilemma with my LS. At the end of the day, it is my first car, i hope never to sell it but it has such a sketchy history and it would take so long and cost so much to make it genuine again, i decided to fix it up to be MY mini, an expression of who i am. It will undoubtedly change during its lifetime and there was no point in making it look pretty if it couldnt do what i wanted it to. have no fear, i will take that thing everywhere, thrash it but love it. i will use it just as it was always meant to be used as; a tribute to the legacy it had created.

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Why Drink And Drive When You Can Smoke Dope And Fly!?

I too can appreciate both camps. I love to see a beautifully restored, numbers correct, or immaculately kept original of anything... but it is not something I would particularly aspire to do or own. I would rather own something I was not scared to use. But hey, that is just me. Other people like different things, different cars, different styles. If we all liked the same thing it would be a bit boring.

The first post in this thread was a great read, but this bit said it all for me with regard to your car that you have had for 34 years.

It is a collection of memories of experiences. The value of those to me would probably prevent me from being able to restore it if it was mine, unless it got to the point where it just had to be done to save it.
The next owner however will be getting a well-worn classic sans memories and attachment to its blemishes. Then it will be their choice or desire that leads to either a full restoration or whatever they had in mind when they were drawn to it.

Cheers, Tim.

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Don't listen to what I am saying... just understand what I mean.

Its funny, I love my unrestored 1974 Leyland mini ( that my wife has told me I am selling), But I have gone into getting everything factory correct on my Cooper S.... Its addictive,

Its funny, Even on my 2002 JCW Cooper S. I am starting to track down NOS and super rare JCW Accessories for it to make it like show room.....

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Wow!

Such a delight to read so many considered, yet heart-felt opinions - and to feel that generally, we are all of the same mind and well-disposed towards our fellow travellers. Personally, I've never met a mini I didn't like - but various people near and dear have told me I am obsessed with them, so perhaps my opinion is as biased as the rear subframe on my first (which saw the back wheels tracking an inch to the left of the front ones). That car (Yellow Deluxe....where have all the Deluxes gone now?) ended it's life - and very nearly mine - embracing a tree on the passenger side, so passionately that the trunk was almost close enough to kiss. And had I not just dropped my girlfriend home (which explains the testosterone fuelled 'moment' when I decided she would be impressed by a handbrake turn at the end of her street) it's unlikely that she would now be my wife of several decades.

Her relationship with the car has been...well, conflicted. We had some happy adventures, some with happy endings, in Min many years ago. Since then, the pressures of life have intervened, but I am hoping to have them back on the road (the wife and the car) fairly soon. Min now has nice new carpet and a set of black leather Recaros - that are so comfortable the first time I tried one late at night, I woke up two hours later. Whether they will compensate for the full on 1380 with straight-cut everything remains to be seen....

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Min - 1970 MkII S, 119hp Dave Anton 1380, SH Engineering belt drive, 1.5 rollers, 123Tune ignition, 48 DCO SP Weber, HP Headers, MSD, Maniflow ex. Swiftune SC/CR 3.7 + ATB, all KAD front, antiroll bars and gas shocks, 6 inch Minilites with Dunlop Sports

Its a great thread Cranky and a topic I seem to get involved in regularly.

I have delved deeply into both camps over the years, and in my experience the only person who is fit to make the decision is the owner of the car. Each car has to be taken on its own merit and there can't possibly be one answer.
In the late 90's I restored a concourse Cooper S that went on to win pretty much everything including the first in class and car of the show at the RACQ Motorfest (now motorama). But on the other hand my father owned for many years possibly one of the best unrestored MK2 S's in the country. It was a 2 owner car, mostly original paint although it had stone chips and a few touch ups here and there, but was pretty much in survivor condition.
The restoration of the Hopkirk car has been a blend. As much as possible of the original car has been retained and painstakingly brought back into service even if that meant it wasn't a 10/10 concourse item, it was still the original part, and only adds to the patina. Some of the car was beyond repair or service and needed replacement, so genuine items were sought.
The Group C race car I have has all the hallmarks of a car that has spent almost its entire life on the track. Sitting in it, you can smell the sweat and fear. Like a good red wine, you wouldn't dream of messing with that by adding a mixer. That car will never be restored. It's raced regularly, and yes it will need repairs but all kept to a minimum.

The point I am getting at is each car really needs assessing on its own, and I don't think any one camp can ever be correct. I do however detest when somebody abuses the privilege of owning something special and proceeds to damage it with little or no care or responsibility for the heritage. A certain genuine Cooper S in good condition that was chopped into a convertible springs to mind, and a certain historic race car that is rapidly falling into disrepair. To me these things are a far greater sin than bolting on a set of aftermarket rims.

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1970 Cooper S ex-Bathurst & ATCC
1964 Austin Cooper S ex-Group C race car
1967 Morris Cooper S ex-Group B
1962 Mini Speed sports sedan
1968-71 ex-Peter Manton Shell car

My mini has been in the family for over 30 years. My dad put in the seatbelts and aftermarket gauges. My grandpa had it resprayed and swapped the engine to a 998. Sure I'd love a 100% original 850 or Cooper but it wouldn't be the mini that got me interested in them and that we spent our school holidays being driven around in on the farm. Because it isn't original it gives me freedom now to make changes to the car to have it how I want it, and also keep the little bits of family history. If it ever had a full restoration to as new condition you'd loose more than you'd gain in my opinion. I'm happy to drive on dirt roads and park it in a car park and get the groceries too.

On the other hand if I bought a car with no history to me, or any significant past history I'd be more than happy to restore it to "as-new" condition. I can appreciate all the hard work and effort gone into getting a car 100% correct.

I think you need to play a fine balance between getting a car "concourse" and "restored". It can be interesting to see cars restored to be concourse original, and retain all the faults and irregularities of the 60's production process (i.e. paint deliberately missing in sections as per the factory, poor paint finish, poor panel fit) and not be as functional or nicely presented as a "restored" car. I'd think if the BMC factory could of had extra time/money/effort to finish the cars a little better that they would

As long as we can appreciate both sides we'll all be ok!

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I think you have distilled the truth of it Low'n'Blown. Each situation should be taken on its own merits. Some cars excel in their condition, some rise on their build quality, others as an expression of their owners vision. Where interest, passion and effort have been applied, some recognition is due, even if the result is not to everyone's taste.

There is however a bottom-line somewhere (always), and I think from the responses to this thread it is found roughly at the point where the owner does not appreciate or care about the welfare of their car. Not all cars have a glorious history, some, through no fault of their own have had multiple owners and numerous bits and pieces changed, added and subtracted or lost. Providing the owner is prepared to put he effort in, and generally be considerate of the broader history and importance of the machine, and is tolerant of other people's visions and efforts, then all power to them. I deeply admire those with the dedication to complete those perfect restorations. I also love the daily user examples, which often have some wear and tear. I admire the way out custom jobs, but as you suggested, would rather not see a special car turned into something that could be made from any of the models.

Special is the word. I think that's what the S stands for? But even if you don't have a little shiny S on your bum, we are all just as "special" as the rest, and I will continue to wave like a crazy person at every other escapee from the asylum I see getting away in a mini!

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Min - 1970 MkII S, 119hp Dave Anton 1380, SH Engineering belt drive, 1.5 rollers, 123Tune ignition, 48 DCO SP Weber, HP Headers, MSD, Maniflow ex. Swiftune SC/CR 3.7 + ATB, all KAD front, antiroll bars and gas shocks, 6 inch Minilites with Dunlop Sports

Hi Cranky,
We've had about 12 Minis over the years including a 1961 850 (long ago), a genuine 1968 Cooper S (original save for a walnut dash) and a `Pretend Cooper S' (Barney).

I do like original and restored cars, but sometimes you need to just use the cards and limited $$$ you are dealt in life.
My current car is a 1970 Mini.Matic, rescued 25 years ago from being an ornament my boss's garden, for a 1L bottle of Chivas Regal. Bargain!
When bought, it had no trim, no brakes, no bonnet badge, and the gearbox only had Retreat, ie no forward gears. Roof was concave from the boss's kids jumping in it. Moss was growing on the south side of the body...! At least the body was (relatively) straight otherwise.
So, the resurrection (not restoration) started from a pretty low base. I got it running, painted it in original Jet Red acrylic, fixed the autobox, but then acquired a `76 Clubby for $1500 which had been fitted with Clubby GT mechanicals and its hydro suspension.
The 998 Mini.Matic was pretty gutless for my intended usage, sooo... one weekend a front end swaperoo occurred and my Matic got a 1310 Mk1S motor and GT gearbox with GT front bags. The Clubby got sold, it must be the only `76 hydro ClubbyMatic in the country.
A parts Deluxe I bought gave its ROH Contessas. I covered them with Inno flares (some hate em, I like em.. hey it's MY car!
It then became my daily driver for 12 years, and got a little track time too.
It still looks like a Matic and the rear badge says so, the giveaway is the 2" zorst and twin tanks.
The motor was replaced with an 1100S (1310cc) which is now 1360.
A few years ago the acrylic paint was looking a bit dull so I cut the rust out wherever found, patched it, then got it prepped and repainted in 2 pack Jet Red. Seats are now Cobra Classics from a Japanese Rover, the rear seat is a GT (not basketweave).

When back from the painter's...!


Back on the road 10 months from bodywork start-


I don't pretend it's a show car, but it is a ball of fun to drive and it doesn't ever get mistaken for a `Cooper S'.
It is now a Club car.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

I find that this discussion will forever be a boomerang - It will keep coming back.

As many have said I can see this from both sides - I think originality is nice, especially with say a Cooper S, but then there is the personalisation and the history that comes with a car. Other than a home a car is usually one of the most individual things you can possess, something that you can make your own to reflect who you are and your taste.

This conversation came up recently between my father and I, where we have a (soon to sell) genuine matching number 68 Mk1S awaiting a full resto - We have no real history with the car and we bought it in pieces. In a case like this I believe it should be put back as close to original as reasonably possible - It is like starting from a blank canvas. That being said I don't think that SHOULD be the rule just because it is a Cooper S - I think as long as you don't irreversibly butcher the car, why does it matter? I know I will get flamed for this - But in my opinion - If it has the right numbers and is genuine - why does anything else matter? If it's a Cooper S it will always be a Cooper S no matter what seats you put in it or dashboard you like.

On the other hand I absolutely love my Deluxe, there's not really an original bit on the car, but I love that I have the freedom to change whatever I want without someone coming over and saying 'you have the wrong taillight lens' or 'that's the wrong interior light for the year model'.

You change whatever you damn well want (as you've said) and I respect that - I will honk the horn or wave at anyone driving a mini - at the end of the day we'd all be going to the exact same rehab if we had to shake our Mini addiction!

James

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I wish I had some sort of witty quote in my signature

Wonderful history Dr Mini! The other aspect of Miniphilia (you've got it bad....) is that often the family gets involved too - I taught my son to drive in Min, on the principle that if he could manage a manual, cranky part-race car, anything else would be easy... We went out several times, and because she is not a show car I wasn't too worried. It usually took a couple of hours to wipe the smile off his dial afterwards. Now the (grown) kids are trying to 'bags' Min when I can't drive anymore - or die, I don't think they care much which one, as long as they get the car....

I've only had three - but have always had a mini since I got my licence. I also bought an ex-australian motorkhana frame with separate front and rear brakes - so you could lock the back and spin the thing on it's own axis rearwards with one back wheel in the air like a dog relieving itself.

I've taken various people for rides - one guy offered me his WRX as a straight swap. Another took me for a spin in his 2012 GTR - just insane, but I reckon he enjoyed the dash in mine just as much. They really are magic little cars, minis - bit like staffies, always up for a bit of fun and a car you can have a relationship with. My better half drives a fantastic car - Audi A4 Quattro Turbodiesel with 5 f-in' 100 NM!!!!! It's like being hitched to a high speed freight train by a bungee cord, and it sticks like bugs on a windshield. But it's never said a word to me....Min talks to me all the time

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Min - 1970 MkII S, 119hp Dave Anton 1380, SH Engineering belt drive, 1.5 rollers, 123Tune ignition, 48 DCO SP Weber, HP Headers, MSD, Maniflow ex. Swiftune SC/CR 3.7 + ATB, all KAD front, antiroll bars and gas shocks, 6 inch Minilites with Dunlop Sports

Thanks Cranky, you've opened up a great thread. Yes, there will always be two sides to the coin but the sheer passion with which the respondents have respectfully expressed their opinions and feelings is what makes the Mini community so special. I'm sure the great Sir Alex would be surprised and proud to know how much his baby is revered in whatever form fifty plus years down the track.
Richard