Hello all, new to the group. I'm located near Seattle, WA, US, and recently received two Australian origin Cooper S cars (1966, 1970). Well, at least one of them is...there is mounting evidence that the '66 is at best a re-shell, but hopefully some of you that live in the country of origin can help with that...

A few basics. The '66 has correct numbers on the number plate and matching engine number stamped on the head. The colors are stated as 1/Toga White/11/New British Rac Green/3. An old respray is in approximately these colors. It passes most of the tests on the ozcooper.com.au site, but fails some also. The most obvious failures are that there are no tunnels for the hydrolastic pipes in the pan, and the tabs to hold the fuel vent tubing are missing on the right and top sides. Also, the hole for the remote gear lever is not what I'd call perfect, but also not a hack job. However, the hole for the right tank is perfect, and the support for the right tank is spot welded in place also. Lastly, I have sanded test spots on both doors, bonnet, boot lid, roof, front and rear fenders. In all cases, it is this: bare metal, a very light greenish coat (primer?), butter cream yellow, green or grey (sides or roof, respectively). I would obviously say that the shell in butter cream doesn't match the number plate's description. One other strange note on paint--inside the doors, the paint is much older an non-metallic. It is dark green, and sanding it down produces: bare metal, brownish layer, red primer, dark green paint. I believe this to be original New British Racing Green paint.

I am really just trying to resolve the mystery so I know how to proceed. The car is pretty solid, but I am deciding whether to pursue a full-on restoration for a genuine car, or something less for a re-shell or counterfeit car. My feeling is, if the guts were moved to another Cooper shell, no problem. But if they were moved to a non-Cooper shell I have a problem. So the pointed questions for now are:

--Did every Cooper S in Australia have tunnels with covers for the hydrolastic tubes, or did this not happen until the MKII? Did the non-Cooper minis in Oz have these tunnels?
--Was there a Cooper (S or not) in Australia that had a buttercream color paint, in monotone? How about a non-cooper mini in Australia?
--Is there any incidence of the fuel venting tabs not being present on the right side, since the right fuel tank was an option?
--Were there any Cooper S models sold in Australia that did not come with a factory oil cooler?
--Was the primer used of a buttercream color?

So far this isn't making sense to me--if someone sandblasted the whole car to bare metal and painted it buttercream, they would have blasted the inside of the doors also. If they just sprayed over the original paint, it would be there when I sand away. And if this weren't a Cooper shell, there are several things that would be pretty hard to mimic. I'm hoping someone can put this in perspective for me.

Anyway, thanks a lot and I'll look forward to talking to you soon.

not every MK1 S had the tunnels with covers, it was introduced after production started. They were introduced in '66, so it may be correct for this car



yes, the "Morris Mini Deluxe" model had the tunnels as well, introduced at the same time


yeah, there were some colours you could describe as buttercream...



the right hand tank was never an option in Australia - it was standard fitment, so they all had it. I believe the tabs were always there, it may not have been on the very early cars, though I'd say all S's should have them



the very early MK1 S's (circa 1965) had their oil cooler mounted on the side of the oil filter housing, not on the grille flange, so didn't have the diagonal brace etc.



pass... the only primer I've seen was a red sort of colour - I think...



can you provide some pictures and numbers?

you say that the hole for the gearstick isn't very neat - is there a patched hole for the 850 style gearshift near the firewall?

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did I tell you that I won a trophy?

That's what's on the inside of the doors, and what I'd expect also. The very light green under the butter cream is really strange.



I can do some pictures later tonight and post them. I have a hard time seeing a patched hole, as the front floor pan area has had undercoating or similar applied. Would it be mastic as shown in Parnell's book, or a screwed down plate? If a plate, I don't think it's there. If mastic, maybe. Sort of a square at the front of the tunnel on the left side.

With the lack of fuel vent tabs, and the not-so-neat hole for the shifter, I'm guessing that the shell was left-tank-only originally, and had the remote hole cut. But that leaves me wondering why the right tank has the proper spotwelded support and a perfectly cut and smoothed hole for the filler neck.

You said the hydro tunnels and covers were added later--did you mean just the covers, or also the tunnels were added later? This shell has neither that I can tell. Viewed from inside the car, each side of the floor pan on my correct '70 has five ribs pressed down into the metal; the '66 has four. The hydro tubes on the '66 are held in place with metal tabs of sorts under the car.

tx,
bmc
p.s. Nice avatar...

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Ben McCafferty
Bainbridge Island, Washington, USA
1970 ex-police mk2 Cooper S

The introduction of the tunnel for hydro lines was 1967 and continued from there on

Some Aust 1965 model cooper s did not have the tabs for vent pipes they were held in place by clips. tthere should be pre drilled holes on the right hand side of the seat brace for these clips if the car was originaly an Aust Cooper S,

As far as I know all Aust Cooper S had a oil cooler fitted, However on the some 1965 models this was fitted to the engine not the grille Panel

no, there shouldn't be any cut out shape at all - not for a '66 anyway, the first 100 or so in '65 maybe, but surely not in '66. When we get some numbers, we'll be able to compare it to a car of similar age and see how close we get with the details



pass.... it is possible to spot weld and neatly cut & file holes if you try hard enough, though why would a wouldbe faker forget the breather retaining tabs but spend so much effort on the tank support



that's correct for a '66 S and a '66 Deluxe - funny shaped plates front & rear with a couple of 5/16" UNF bolts



no worries.... and I like it too

"Graham in Aus" will be useful for this one when he gets on line

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did I tell you that I won a trophy?

My $50 is on it being a original S, from your decription, most likely early production, engine mounted oil cooler. As John says, some early Mark 1's missed out on the right hand tank tabs. As for the paint job, my recollection of Oz Coopers that came from the factory with BRG, on early cars this color weathered very badly (oxidation?) to the point it would look more like purple than green. My extra $20 is on the "butter-cream" possibly being a filler-primer that was applied before it was resprayed. As for the hydro protection plates, i may be able to get a pic up for you. They were bolted to each "corner" near the front & rear subframes. pretty useless protection IMO, but if you are seeking originality, they should be easy to fabricate. BTW good to have someone from the States onsite. Welcome!

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1967 Cooper S - new front bearings to do.
1965 Cooper S shell - Slow progress. No time or money!
1966 Deluxe- next rustoration!
Mk 2 & XJ6 Jags. Less said the better.

Thanks a ton guys. After reading your posts and looking under the car, I am slowly exhaling, but not totally out of the woods yet. Here are some photos.

By the way, the number plate has: 9FSAY41622 for the engine (and this is stamped on the engine where the engine number plate would be in the UK), YKG2S2/1913 for the car. On the shroud, it's hard to make out, but it has M2 stamped on one line, then 06 directly below the M2, then a space after 06, then 1403. So like this:
M2
06 1403

One thing that occurred to me this morning is that I am assuming this is a '66 because it's registered as one. But I have no way of really knowing. If ozcooper.com.au is accurate, the delivery date falls between 1/67 and 2/67, which seems to put production indeed in '66. The engine number falls one bracket earlier, 10/66 to 1/67, but that seems to be "close enough" given the record-keeping of the day.





Photo attached shows one these four plates in place on the car (if I am looking at the right part). THe other three are all there also.





I took a putty knife and scraped away the tar at this location. Picture attached. There is a sort of u-shape, with braze metal around the edges. It could be a cutout, but it only has three sides. If you look closely at the picture, there is a bolt head to the left--the seam starts directly right of that, goes right a bit, towards you a bit (down), right a bit, away from you (up) then right again. It seems more like the tunnel was replaced and brazed back on to the floor pans by your feet--perhaps it was rusted out also and this was the reason for the ragged hole in the tunnel too? Not sure here, but have a look. Also, in Parnell's book, page 16 by the photo: "To the left of the clutch pedal is the gear lever hole blanking plate with its original factory applied mastic sealing compound." Somewhere he states that all floors had both holes, but was this not the case in Australia?





My sentiments exactly. If this is a fake, the guy spent a helluva lot of time on all the details, and it doesn't make sense to leave out such obvious and easy things.


Photo attached again, showing two holes to the right of the bracket for the right tank (viewed from inside, facing rear). Are these the ones you referred to?



Here's the remote change hole:


I know it sounds strange, but if you line up all the pieces of this ragged edge, it was originally a pretty smooth cutout. Is there a common reason these holes get torn up? Even on the '70, which is really nice, one corner has a dent in it as if someone leveraged against it with a screwdriver or something.

Speaking of shifters, here's a really stupid question for you. I drove these two minis before starting to tear them down. What is the trick to get into reverse? I could just pull hard right and get over to reverse, but this seemed wrong. I'm used to pushing the shifter down or something like that.

Thanks again guys for all the help so far. There is nothing worse that being thousands miles away from the source with nowhere to turn! I visited Australia and New Zealand last year for the first time, and can't wait to get back that direction.

talk soon,
bmc

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Ben McCafferty
Bainbridge Island, Washington, USA
1970 ex-police mk2 Cooper S

I suppose if the rubber mounting at the rear of the remote housing and the engine mounts are stuffed, the whole thing could be flogging the sides of the hole in the floorpan. There is a fair lever arm there, so it would not take much movement at the engine end to hit the sides of the hole at the remote end.



Yep the remote gearshift (and the old magic wand for that matter) have a spring loaded detent to prevent accidental selection of reverse. You push it hard enough and overcome the spring tension to get into reverse.

cheers
michael

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the world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page
66 Mini Minor sponsored by http://www.lifeonthehedge.com.au/ The Dog Harness Specialists
It was a pleasure ausmini. I'll miss all you misfits and reprobates

The first 1394 cars , from start of production in August 1965 had the oil cooler mounted vertically below the generator ....so this would take in up to mid 1966 cars as well , presuming a production average of around 100 cars a month , give or take 10 or 15 for some months ...

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1965 Morris 850
1966 Morris Mini Minor
1967 Morris Cooper 'S'
1977 Leyland LS

It looks as though you've got a genuine OZ MK1 S. The numbers on the radiator surround are correct and the engine number and CAR number are correct.
On OZ built cars the engine number stamped plate was removed and the engine number stamped on the block. This was to prevent the possibility of fraudulent activity. Must be something to do with our convict ancestory!!!
My first S was of similar vintage (1966 CAR No 1090) and was the same colour Toga White /New British Racing Green with green upholstery.
It had the engine mounted oil cooler and the vertical support piece for the grille opening, rather than the angled support as on cars with the larger grille mounted oil cooler.
The damaged gear stick hole is normal as the rear rubber support breaks regularly and allows the remote change housing to move around and bend the opening. All bodies have the welded cover over the magic wand gear change opening. Floor pans didn't have the grooves for the hydro pipes on early cars and the later floor pans are unique to Australia. UK sourced replacement floor pans are quite different.
The CAR number from the ID plate should be stamped on the firewall just below the plate and there should approx 500 difference between the CAR number on the plate and the BODY number stamped on the radiator surround. The M2/06 is the PRODUCTION code for OZ built Cooper cars including 998 and 997???? Coopers. Not 100% certain about the 997. The 06 part is a reference to the YDO number, which is the OZ equivalent of the UK ADO number, for Australian designed/modified UK designs.
Looks like Seattle has aquired another Aussie icon along with Melbourne W2 trams (trolleys in US speak), along Alaskan Way IIRC.

Regards
RonR

Another thing to check is if there is a small hole under the rear seat tray on the bulkhead where the electric su fuel pump vents into the car on the passenger side. Correct me if I am wrong for the early cars, but my 67 S has this feature which helped me to verify that it was a genuine car when I purchased it.

I put it in neutral, and gently tap the lever to the right to get it over the detent plug then pull it into reverse.

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Lillee - 1969 Morris Mini K

Let me just say: You. Guys. Rock.

Even if it had been bad news, this is exactly the inside information I needed. I've also got all the back issues of The Mini Experience on the way.

After re-reading all the posts, I realized that I never mentioned one of the most telling things of all. The bonnet has no holes for the "S", and the newer green paint is faded to show that a normal Morris badge had been fitted, i.e. with the longer arms. The boot lid has the proper script and "S" holes. I also am 99% certain that the front fenders have been replaced, and the nose panel has some light bondo on it. Also the panel that holds the bonnet latch is just slightly tweaked.

After all the considering and talking, here's a story that I think makes sense. The original car was green/white as indicated. Somewhere early on, the car had a front end collision, which damaged fenders, bonnet, grille, nose panel. The fenders and bonnet were replaced (bonnet being non-cooper but who cares?), and the nose panel was straightened. At that point the owner decided to paint that butter cream color, OR, the butter cream was a primer all along and the owner just went straight to the metallic green that's on there now, on top of the British Racing Green. Also somewhere along the line, the oil cooler was added to the nose panel.

Years later I come along trying to figure all this out, and find that the shell is mostly intact and correct. I'll add the holes for the front "S" and put the proper Morris Cooper badge up there also. An icon is restored to its former glory.

What say you all? Sound feasible?

A few comments/questions about your latest round of feedback:



Can you be more specific--do you mean in the space behind where the passenger's feet would be? If so, there are holes into the companion boxes on each side, but nothing through the bulkhead towards the boot. The seatback bulkhead has the two clip holes, and four large holes (two high, two low) as well.





Would there be anything left on the engine to show this? The vertical support is gone, since the oil cooler is now 13-row mounted on the front apron, after the apron's sheet metal was crudely bent rearward. Is the proper nose panel available still? If so, I would consider replacing this to get the right one in there.




I had to look closely behind the brake master cylinders, but sure enough, there it is: 1913. The numbers are taller than the ones on the engine and the shroud; probably 1/2" (1cm?) or so.


You are correct!!! But I'm sad to say that the city stopped running the trams about two years ago. The tracks are just rusting and the stations stand empty. Not sure if they are planning to reopen the route or not, but I really miss it. It was a great way to clear out tourists also...(i.e. running them over). Happened all the time.



When you say "push it hard enough", do you mean push it sideways, or push it down? I'd really feel like a bonehead going to the tranny shop, "yeah, I broke reverse because I'm stupid." I broke a fire hydrant the other day, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility. At least the hydrant was stuck closed and I didn't do anything wrong...

As an aside, the 1970 of course has the factory mounted fender flares. These are starting to get brittle, and though I could save them if I had to, I'm wondering if they are available still on the market there? I have to assume I'll find lots of ads for parts vendors in The Mini Experience when it arrives, but any favorites in that regard?

Thank you a thousand times. Momentum is building again for the project. The wind was really out of my sails this time yesterday.

best,
bmc

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Ben McCafferty
Bainbridge Island, Washington, USA
1970 ex-police mk2 Cooper S

This photo was posted by Mick a while ago in a similar thread , you can just see the tiny , segmented plastic plug in the upper edge of the verticle panel around the center of the photo . The plug is normally a plain nylon type colour but in this case has been sprayed body colour at some stage .

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Funny how I didn't see that when I was looking for a hole, but when I see your photo and look again, it couldn't be more obvious! It's a white plug in my case, segmented in thirds like in your photo.

I gotta tell you all, I couldn't be more giddy at the good news. I bought these two minis from a guy in Maryland, about 3,000 miles from Seattle, based on photos and descriptions alone. I didn't have very many photos of the 1966. I bought them for a very good price for Cooper S cars, but not a good price for minis in general. So when I thought this was a knockoff, I can't tell you how distressing it was! I intend to restore both to bare metal, and then sell one; so the prospect of restoring a counterfeit and how to sell it, etc. was very daunting.

So good on you all, and talk again soon I'm sure.
bmc

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Ben McCafferty
Bainbridge Island, Washington, USA
1970 ex-police mk2 Cooper S