<edit> Matt, please read -------------------------------->






Only two things you forgot to mention with H13 (and most hot worrk tool steels) their diamentionally stable (not that its relevant here, but I better point it out, because if I don't some one will, and then they'll make out like you don't know what you're talking about just because you didn't see the point in mentioning something totally unrelated to your point) AND Curiously.... they don't harden much past around the 60HRc mark..... interesting that someone would use a material that you can't get past 60 HRc (55HRc typically for H13) if maximum hardness and "stiffeness" was the goal. Perhaps they may have used K5 if that was the goal, its got the same make up as H13 but has an extra 0.7% carbon meaninng you can achieve 65HRc. But what would I know about tool steels.

Now this is important. Please read.

Do not send it to me and neither can I pick it up. I do not want to be accused of tainting the sample.

Take it yourself, or send it with someone you trust or use a courier and record the Consignment Note Number (post it here). Photograph it (and also post here). Make notes of any distiguishing marks etc of it. Mark it as being from 'Russell Engineering'.

I will instruct Sydney Mechanical Testing Laboritory to;-

i) Record the name of the person delivering it or the Consignment Note Number.
ii) Photograph and generally describe the sample, including anything distinguishing on it.
iii) Test the core material to determine the grade of steel and its hardness.
iv) Test the surface hardness.
v) Test hardness at 0.005" , again at 0.010", again at 0.015", again at 0.020", at 0.030", at 0.060" and at 0.080".
vi) Determine what (if any) treatment and method of treatment has been carried out.
vii) Prepare a report with all of the above information / results.

If you do not agree or feel there is something else that should be done or tested, by all means, speak up.

Now going back to you post reagrding this sample / your claim, what we are looking for is


That is, nitriding to a depth of at least 0.060", yeah?

Again, if you disagree, speak up.

I will happily cover all costs associated with these tests, if it is in fact found to be nitrided to any depth. If it is found to be treated any other way and / or induction hardened or similar, then I think it only fair you pay these costs. I will ask that you cover costs to get it to the Lab. I will cover costs for it's return.

I will post the Test Report here, what ever the results.

Do we have an agreement?

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I think considering the great debate, GT has done the right thing, and spelt it out clearly so as to avoid any confusions.
GR made the offer initially, and GT wishes to make sure that GR's property is treated properly, and has explained exactly what his intention is with the sample!
Many people have shown great interest in the topic, (some just wanted to stoke a fire) so it would be a shame if it were to end with a botch up because of poor communication!
If its all on the table to start with, then I believe that there should be no problem from GR. As I stated initially, it was his offer to have the piece tested!

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Chuck Norris is the only person alive who can kick you in the back of the face!!
mooo, I'm a pig!

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For anyone who's interested, this is a page I scanned from the Bohler Tool Steels book on Heat Treatment. Its only brief. But its a publication, as in not something that someones writen up and posted to wikipedia. This was writen by metallurgy department of Bohler Tool Steels.

FFS..the internet is full of PUBLISHED disinformation and half truths subsequently disproved and improved...grow up stooopid

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"Show me the Mini!"

PK, that Bohler blurb is all about salt bath nitriding, which is nothing like proper gas nitriding (using ammonia) as used on EN40B..


go google gas nitriding...

eg here- http://www.keytometals.com/articles/art132.htm

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

Doc,

As I pointed out to you last time on the topic of nitirding.... salt bath nitriding IS proper nitriding. Gas nitriding is another type. As is Plasma.

Further more,, and Kevin, I think you know that I have no grype with you so please don't read into this the wrong way... but... TO YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE PLEASE BLOODY READ IT

It says right there in the second paragraph IN SPECIAL CASES AMMONIA... It's a general "blub" about nitriding. What it says is relevent to all types.

"Google" Ammonia nitriding and see what comes up.

Facinating. This look like the one that GR post from the other night

http://www.wisetool.com/designation/gas.htm

This one too has GAS Nitriding (about 1/2 way down the page). Interesting what they have to say about depths and brittness as a result

http://info.lu.farmingdale.edu/depts/me ... ening.html

Thanks Doc

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EN40B cranks are NOT, repeat NOT nitrided in a salt bath...
We are not making press tools here.
Read down that page where it mentions about compressive stress.

BTW guys I am NOT defending anybody here, but gas nitriding is THE process used on EN40B cranks.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

The process and effect (be it gas, plasma, saltbath) is still the same whether you're making a "press tool" a crankshaft, or just a very hard wear resistant paper weight.

Where on the page does it say "salt bathing only"? In the same sentence that mentions salt bathing it says "....salt bath or in special cases ammonia"




I don't follow you, are you refering to Mowogs post or mine? The page I put up doesn't mention compressive stress anywhere

Hang on fellas, this is turning into a sh*t fight again. Now please stop and take a big deep breath.

OK we all know that the net has all sorts of irrevelant and superceed info.

So lets make a rule here so that we discuss only the correct facts. Now bohler steel do have their own official site with all the properties of their steel range and the correct proceedures for the various heat treatments.
So do just about every steel producer in the world,except for china cos it's nigh impossible to treat crap.

If you are going to make a statement on this topic [which is going around in circles] then you must back it up with some sort of concrete evidence to qualify your statement. Facts not folk law as my lecturers kept telling us.
This is how sh*t fights start. No evidence to back it up. If you disagree with what has been posted then show and explain why.

Now I think that we should get back on track regarding the original topic and the side issues from that as the benifit of any technical knowlege can benifit all in some way or the other. If you do not agree with the engineering /physics laws then re-write them or just ignore them and do what you want.

NOW BACK ON TRACK FELLAS

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Research is the difference between speculation and investment. Anyone who copys some one else will always be second
www.minisprintgt.com

According to

http://www.keytometals.com/page.aspx?ID ... KTS&NM=135

Gas and Liquid (that is Salt Bath) Nitriding are almost the same with Gas being able to achieve slightly deeper penetration, but does not say how deep.

"Liquid Nitriding Applications
Liquid nitriding processes are used primarily to improve wear resistance of surfaces and to increase the endurance limit in fatigue. For many steels, resistance to corrosion is improved. These processes are not suitable for many applications requiring deep cases and hardened cores, but they have successfully replaced other types of heat treatment on a performance or economic basis.
In general, the uses of liquid nitriding and gas nitriding are similar, and sometimes identical. Gas nitriding may be preferred in applications where heavier case depths and are required. Both processes, however, provide the same advantages: improved wear resistance and antigalling properties, increased fatigue resistance, and less distortion than other case-hardening processes employing through heating at higher temperatures.

The degree to which steel properties are affected by liquid nitriding may vary with the process used and the chemical control maintained."

Looks like a good site. Thanks for the link Doc



That's why I DON'T get my info off the net.

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Unlocked and clean up Again Last Chance

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Stop Licking the Dog...I Don't Care Who Started It